[psycho835]

Just got "Hard Targets" and something occurrred to me. Namely, since barrels, gas vents and sound suppressors all take the same modification slot (barrel), they are mutually exclusive. But shouldn't aftermarket barrels be perfectly capable of accepting accessories as long as they have threads? And since in the world of Shadowrun most of the weapons seem to have them, even when they are invisible in the artwork it's a reasonable assumption those barrels would be threaded. I honestly can't think of any good reason to NOT mix these barrels with screwed-on accessories. Can you?

[Marcus Gideon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor

Suppressors channel the expanding gases that propel the bullet, into a series of baffles to disperse the pressure before it exits the barrel. The bullet comes out a bit slower than normal, but also a bit quieter. In reality, it still sounds pretty distinctly like a gunshot. It's never like the movies, with a little tiny "pew" sound that doesn't alert the guards.

Gas Vents channel the expanding gases upwards to counteract the recoil causing the weapon to kick. While the barrel naturally wants to rise, the vent pushes it back down. But that's letting the full force of the expanding gas out the vent, which would be just as noisy as a typical gunshot. Plus the vent has to be at the very end of the barrel for the best effect, and threading something into the barrel at the end would just plug up the vent on the inside.

Depending on the order you combine them, you're basically making one of them obsolete.

[Gun] - [Gas Vent] - [Suppressor] is going to vent the gases and sound before it hits the suppressor, making just as much noise. And that's assuming that when you threaded the suppressor, that it didn't just block up the gas vent making it useless.

[Gun] - [Suppressor] - [Gas Vent] has dampened the gases through all the baffles already, meaning there isn't much left to vent. So it won't have as much force, and the weapon will still kick. So no more Recoil Compensation for you.

Hard Targets also added subsonic rounds, which basically fire a little slower on their own. But as you'll see in the book, that drops their DV - 1. If you start tinkering with the gas pressure too much, you're just going to start reducing the DV even further. If someone at my table wanted to press stacking up barrel mods, I'd just start dropping the DV the longer they made the list of accessories.

And no, it wouldn't become / stack with Longbarrel's Accuracy bonus. An ordinary Longbarrel is just making extra sure the bullet spirals in a straight path before exiting. Chaining suppressors and gas vents together isn't doing any of that, it's just meddling with the bullet a while.

[psycho835]

No, no, no, you misunderstand. I meant combining one of the barrels with either gas vent OR a suppressor, not gas vent with a suppressor.

P.S. And yes, I know that the little tiny "pew" sound that doesn't alert the guards is just overactive imagination of Hollywood.

[Marcus Gideon]

No, no, no, you misunderstand. I meant combining one of the barrels with either gas vent OR a suppressor, not gas vent with a suppressor.

P.S. And yes, I know that the little tiny "pew" sound that doesn't alert the guards is just overactive imagination of Hollywood.

Ohh, sorry. =) Lots of people on various forums keep asking about combining them.

Short barrel explicitly states that you cannot fit any barrel mods, b/c you've cut the barrel off.

Long barrel should be able to use either one, from a functional standpoint. And the description says it's replacing the existing barrel with a longer one, so it's technically not a barrel mod. It's a new barrel, which should have room for a single barrel mod at the end.

So yes, I could see the Gas Vent OR the Suppressor working for a Long barrel.

[MijRai]

Actually, if you do a sub-sonic .22LR round with a suppressor, it sounds very close to the Hollywood stuff.  The loudest part at that point is the action of the weapon. 

[psycho835]

Actually, if you do a sub-sonic .22LR round with a suppressor, it sounds very close to the Hollywood stuff.  The loudest part at that point is the action of the weapon. 

Would YOU bring a .22 to a gunfight?

Short barrel explicitly states that you cannot fit any barrel mods, b/c you've cut the barrel off.

See, I don't really understand that part. It's not like they don't sell shorter-than-standard barrels. You could drop some cash for a decent product, or roll armorer rather than ust grab a hacksaw.

[MijRai]

Would YOU bring a .22 to a gunfight?

If they don't know I'm there, sure?  I mean, when it is that quiet, you're going to be able to get the jump on folks.  It really requires you to aim and be at a close range for the round to do much, but still. 

[Marcus Gideon]

Short barrel explicitly states that you cannot fit any barrel mods, b/c you've cut the barrel off.

See, I don't really understand that part. It's not like they don't sell shorter-than-standard barrels. You could drop some cash for a decent product, or roll armorer rather than ust grab a hacksaw.

This is a pretty typical rifle, with a typical length stock and barrel.

This is a pretty typical rifle with a long barrel for making long distance sniper type shots.

This is a sawed off rifle meant for concealment and close quarters combat.

Yes, there are shorter tactical variants of weapons. Usually with a shorter barrel and collapsible stock.

But those don't get the same Concealment bonuses that a sawed off does. They aren't meant to be hidden and smuggled, they are just meant to be easier to handle in close quarters compared to a longer barrel and stock. When you start looking at sawed off shotguns and such, those are more than just tactical modifications, they are quite literally chopped up so you can stuff it under your jacket and hope no one notices.

[psycho835]

This is a sawed off rifle meant for concealment and close quarters combat.

That extreme, huh? Looking at this, I'd say that's size +2, rather than +4 that a standard assault rifle can be downsized to with short barrel and no stock though.

[Marcus Gideon]

That picture in particular does incorporate Sawed off barrel, and Stock removal. Which according to Hard Targets, would give you Conceal -2. But it also has DV -1, and Accuracy -1.

[psycho835]

-2 to concealment substracted from the original +6 of an average assault rifle or +4 of a one in bullpup configuration, although I don't know how to go about removing the stock from a bullpup rifle without rendering it unable to fire. At most, that's +4 and +2, with +3 being more likely.

[Marcus Gideon]

-2 to concealment subtracted from the original +6 of an average assault rifle or +4 of a one in bullpup configuration, although I don't know how to go about removing the stock from a bullpup rifle without rendering it unable to fire. At most, that's +4 and +2, with +3 being more likely.

Even before Hard Targets, the chart on Core pg 420 shows an ordinary shotgun at +6, and a sawed-off shotgun at +4. So it agrees that chopping it up is Conceal -2.

This is the M-16, a typical "assault rifle" with a normal barrel and solid stock.

This is the M-4, with a collapsing stock and shorter tactical barrel. The "bullpup assault rifle"  for close quarters. But they are made to be that way from the start. They aren't just a repurposed M-16.

This is the same kind of M-4, with the stock removed (rather folded up on the side), with the barrel essentially sawed off. All that's left is the flash suppressor (and they don't work that well). BTW, I found the image online, those are not my toes. =)

As you can see, it's still possible to wield an assault rifle with most of the bodywork removed, you just can't shoulder it like a rifle anymore. It's basically become an SMG at this point, and honestly should be using the Automatics skill instead of Longarms.

So if you took an ordinary Ares Alpha (+6), and chopped off the stock and barrel completely, it would be making it into a bullpup (+4). If you took something like the HK XM30 (which looks like it's already a bullpup) and you chopped off what little stock it has, you could probably get it down to SMG size (+2).

[CitizenJoe]

This is a sawed off rifle meant for concealment and close quarters combat.

That extreme, huh? Looking at this, I'd say that's size +2, rather than +4 that a standard assault rifle can be downsized to with short barrel and no stock though.

A downsized assault rifle is a carbine and falls into the SMG category.

[psycho835]

Ares Alpha is already a bullpup. Also, I got a bit sidetracked - I don't intend to remove the stock, just replace it with a folding one. With short barrel, the idea WASN'T to shove an AK-97 into a holster under a jacket, but to let it hang from the sling, under a coat, with stock folded. With the long one, it was basically to tun an AR into BR (or, with extended mags, LMG)

A downsized assault rifle is a carbine and falls into the SMG category.

In RL, carbines are generally a bit bigger than SMGs, roughly the size of a bullpup. Does any of the books says otherwise?

P.S. What toes?