[halflingmage]

So if you have to choose one single target indirect spell, what is your first choice?  I have always like lightning bolt, but it has the drawback that nonconductivity is probably the most common armor mod because of tasers and stick and shock.  Fire attacks are kind of fussy with record keeping and rolls for a tiny bit of ongoing damage.  Acid strips a point of armor, but taking someone from 15 armor to 14 just isn't that impressive.  Thoughts?

[Beta]

The shaman in my game chose ice spear, because there are times when you need something solid ( to use blast out of hands, etc), so he was willing to give up useful secondary effects for the solid bolt.  (but for indirect AOE uses lightning ball, as even when the damage it does is low it can have a good sized init impact)

[Whiskeyjack]

Single target? Frankly, I tend to not like single target indirects, because they have all the drawbacks of non-autofire guns (that they can be dodged pretty easily), plus they potentially bite you whether or not they hit. Hence why for combat spells I always reach for Stunbolt and Ball Lightning.

Though if I had to pick, probably Lightning Bolt. Even if a lot of the damage is reduced, dropping initiative is great. Or Napalm.

[ikarinokami]

I like clout

[Facemage]

I think that Whiskeyjack is right. Against basic mooks these spells works but at prime runner level a competent enemy should have at least 13 dices in his dodge pool and with full defense 20. The probability to miss is quite high. If you have to fight against basic mooks at prime runner level, there should be many enemies => area spells are better. A combination of stun bolt, reagents and witness my hate is much more reliable setup.

My selection is Clout or Lightning bolt.

[Marcus]

My selection is Clout or Lightning bolt.

Agreed

[ZeldaBravo]

So if you have to choose one single target indirect spell, what is your first choice?

Have you tried bullets? I mean, shooting a gun is probably better than casting a single target indirect spell unless we are talking about extreme ranges. If I absolutely must cast a spell, I choose throwing knives+Fling.

[halflingmage]

So if you have to choose one single target indirect spell, what is your first choice?

Have you tried bullets? I mean, shooting a gun is probably better than casting a single target indirect spell unless we are talking about extreme ranges. If I absolutely must cast a spell, I choose throwing knives+Fling.

Being worth a damn with guns requires a very specific build for a mage.  Your agility is often not a priority and skill points can be tight.  It really often only works with a mystic adept build for the extra agility and the improved skill power.  On the other hand, the elf magician I have been working on throws 18 dice for combat spells, and with a fetish backed lightning bolt can throw a force 8, 8p ap -8 limit 8 attack that in addition to doing damage has a dice pool debuff and an initiative penalty to the target.  Its only 3 drain which he has 13 dice to cover. And its line of sight without range penalties.  I don't really see how an Ares Predator is all that better. 

[Whiskeyjack]

So the investment with guns is huge, but the other investment related to turbocasting a spell that can be dodged as easily as a gun isn't huge?

Okay.

[Jimmy_Pvish]

I always choose Clout.

Stun damage has more use than physical damage.

[Whiskeyjack]

Never really get why people like Clout when Stunbolt is a thing you can cast at low Force, with reagents, and which Witness My Hate applies to, and get equal or better results, which cannot be "avoided" unlike indirect single target spells. 

[halflingmage]

So the investment with guns is huge, but the other investment related to turbocasting a spell that can be dodged as easily as a gun isn't huge?

Okay.

Actually, its not.

I don't have to pick up a second combat skill for this.  I don't have to find a way to boost agility. I do have a Force 2 power focus, but that helps every roll that involves magic, not just combat spells.  To get to 18 dice its 6 magic 6 spellcasting 2 combat spec 2 focus 2 mentor spirit.  So what am I committing that any caster wouldn't have?  A mentor spirit and skill spec choice and 2k nuyen for a fetish.  Thats not a huge investment beyond what any decently built magician would have.  I still have 14 dice for all other spell types, summoning, and counter spelling, which is not bad. 

And yes, a single target indirect spell is not always the best tactical choice.  But neither is AOE or a direct spell in every case.  If 18 dice is simply too inaccurate for you because it could potentially be dodged then I presume all the street sammis in your game walk around with a grenade launcher and nothing else? No point in a pistol or a good combat shotgun?  Which is what you are telling me to use, despite they can be dodged too and i would probably have a lower pool with it.

So, as you said . . .
okay?

[halflingmage]

Never really get why people like Clout when Stunbolt is a thing you can cast at low Force, with reagents, and which Witness My Hate applies to, and get equal or better results, which cannot be "avoided" unlike indirect single target spells.

This trick works on special targets fine, but do you really want to drop 200 nuyen on every attack you make?  That adds up fast and really cuts into the profit.  Direct spells are good for targets too tough or too dodgy to otherwise hurt, but for smacking a run of the mill ganger or mall cop I think you would be further ahead with Clout.

[Beta]

Sometimes you want to fire off a direct damage spell not because you are confident on hitting, but because it is part of the whole team chewing through the target's dodge dice.  You know those battles where cover is good, and the odds of anyone hitting are low, so you use the early actions to set up the final pass.  Yes, AOE might do the job, but sometimes that isn't an option for reasons.

[Whiskeyjack]

If 18 dice is simply too inaccurate for you because it could potentially be dodged then I presume all the street sammis in your game walk around with a grenade launcher and nothing else? No point in a pistol or a good combat shotgun?  Which is what you are telling me to use, despite they can be dodged too and i would probably have a lower pool with it.

Nah if I wanted to have a gun, I would make a gun build work. I don't like guns that bite me with no real benefit over and above a gun. I don't see single-directs as worth it, basically ever. Combat is not remotely the best school of magic this edition (a marked change from 4e). Lightning Bolt is a waste against mooks and a risk of outing yourself as the mage with no benefit against anything that actually matters.

This trick works on special targets fine, but do you really want to drop 200 nuyen on every attack you make?  That adds up fast and really cuts into the profit.  Direct spells are good for targets too tough or too dodgy to otherwise hurt, but for smacking a run of the mill ganger or mall cop I think you would be further ahead with Clout.

If I am really worried about reagent costs, then my GM is a stingy bastard with run payout. Because if I really need to worry about reagent costs, then everyone else is really worried about ammo, and, meh, that kind of gutter-poorness over combat resources is not what I come to Shadowrun for.

Besides, I rarely throw combat spells. This edition majorly incentivizes sustained area debuffs.