[PJ]

Been toying with this in my mind for quite some time, as I love this piece of cyberware.  Came up with an idea for a retrograde system and wanted to see about any feedback from the good folks here.  Thanks.

Retrograde Move-by-Wire

Improvements to the original system have taken it far, but some folks just want that extra edge and don’t care about the price.  Or maybe some other folks wanted to make money and figured out a way to make it an option.  Regardless, where there is demand, someone will find a way to supply.  So, the older system has made a comeback.  The retrograde move-by-wire is similar to the modern system more widely known in that each level provides +1 Reaction and +3 Initiative.  This version has four levels, and at levels two and four adds +1d6 Initiative dice.  Where it really diverges is in design implementation.  The new system added a few safe guards that had the effect of making it a complimentary skillwire set, but also slowed down the seizure process to something more manageable.  The retrograde version has removed these safeguards.  This has replaced the skillwire ability with a +1 Agility for each level.

In addition to suffering the -1 Social Limit penalty for every level (due to the muscle tremors), users of the retrograde also develop TLE/x, for which they receive no bonus Karma and cannot buy off unless they remove the retrograde system (if a character already has TLE/x, they must buy off or replace the quality).  The retrograde cannot be turned off (which can present problems in certain surprise/stressful situations), is not wireless capable, and is not compatible with any Reaction enhancements (magical, technological, chemical).  It is also prohibitively costly in Essence (the metahuman body was not meant to be placed under such constant stress).

But its not all bad; street docs and corporations have lowered the costs to make it an attractive option for those unable to afford the more reliable system (or the safer version of wired reflexes).

Level   Essence   Availability   Nuyen
1           3.25     6F                   26,000
2           4.50   12F                   51,000
3           5.75   18F                 103,000
4           7.00   24F                 205,000

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Essence cost are way to high, down right absurd, even with free agility augments as well.

[Marcus Gideon]

Level 4 costs 7 Essence??? You realize people only have 6, right?

Or are you saying they market products for the 0.0000001% of the population that happen to be born with every possible Quality that cuts down on Essence loss from implants?

"Come on down to Implants Emporium! We've got a fresh shipment of PJ's Move-by-wire in 3 convenient grades. And remember, if anyone knows Thomas Anderson, let him know we've still got that one Grade 4 waiting for him!"

[Novocrane]

Level 4 costs 7 Essence??? You realize people only have 6, right?

Which would mean that it's not generally created by the cyberware methods of standard grade, though you could find a prototype / defective model / other if you had a use for it.

[PJ]

The original system in 3rd edition was 2.5/4.0/5.5/7.0 in Essence.  Cost was 250K/500K/1M/2M in nuyen.  Until 4th, Attributes were not paired with skills, so the original also added its rating to all Stealth/Athletics pools.

The description for the new one made mention of the original system being too costly and invasive.  I figured the new system installed safeguards that stopped the guaranteed TLE/x and made it more Essence friendly, but also cut down on its bonuses (and maxed out its level at 3 not 4).

I figured that there would still be a market for the original system, it would just have to be cheaper in nuyen to make it attractive as an option over the new move-by-wire.

And yes, the 4th level is only feasible with alpha grade (or adapsin and paired with biocompatability).

[PJ]

Continuing my last reply...

When M-b-W first came out, it was the best in Reaction/Initiative boost (IMO) even with its drawbacks (which were not present/mandatory in 4E); not until 5E were distinctions between the three Initiative boosters (Synaptic, Wired/Enhancers, M-b-W) developed so characters would really have to decide just which way they wanted to go.

I was envisioning this retrograde version as an option for desperate runners, or something that was starting to see ganger use (as the first two levels are feasibly affordable for the more successful ones).  It could also be something a veteran runner has as an original version.

The Essence is high, perhaps I could follow the new M-b-W and just make level 4 cost 6?  What I can't tell (because I have no way to playtest/compare) is if this would still be a complete no go (no PC would want it), or too powerful (every PC would want it and deal with the drawbacks).

Something that told me the new one was good were the back and forth of folks.  I'm just so enamored of the original 4 level version, I wanted to see if it could be brought back, following the same 5E logic of 'is this the price you're willing to pay?'

[Marcus Gideon]

There's a few of these threads going on lately... saying how the base game mechanics in earlier editions were different, and if those same mechanics were in play now, characters would have a huge advantage.

Guess what? That's why they made the new editions! It was to change the fundamental game mechanics, and balance out gameplay. That's why the new Move By Wires don't work the way the olds ones did. They did it on purpose.

If anything, call it a Retcon. Your character is 25 years old, and he's got SR3 MbW implanted still. One night he goes to sleep, and when he wakes up, it's 2075. Now he's 40 years old, and when he gets out of bed, his MbW work differently. Why, you ask?

[Reaver]

Not to mention that just about EVERYTHING between editions is different.

Dice pools,
Damage track,
Damage codes,
Karma costs,
Matrix,
Initiative system,
The list goes on and on....


You want that nifty 3e crap? Figure a way to bring it in line with 5e.... (Oh, wait! Most of that crap has been! MBW 5e version!)  Or play with the 3e rules and update the time frame.



But do NOT expect to take something from 2+ editions ago and port it directly into 5e.... that just doesn't work.


Geez.... its THac0 all over again....

[Wakshaani]

That said, whenever possible, I like to bring things forward in terms of name brands and the like. Make new stuff, sure, but never forget those what came before, y'know?

(Addendum: I should have made Move-by-Wire a 4-level bit of 'ware like before. Grump.)

[gradivus]

Essence cost are way to high, down right absurd, even with free agility augments as well.

I'm not going to get into whether this is needed or not.

Bioware

Level 4 costs 7 Essence??? You realize people only have 6, right?

Or are you saying they market products for the 0.0000001% of the population that happen to be born with every possible Quality that cuts down on Essence loss from implants?

"Come on down to Implants Emporium! We've got a fresh shipment of PJ's Move-by-wire in 3 convenient grades. And remember, if anyone knows Thomas Anderson, let him know we've still got that one Grade 4 waiting for him!"

Level 4 costs 7 Essence??? You realize people only have 6, right?

Or are you saying they market products for the 0.0000001% of the population that happen to be born with every possible Quality that cuts down on Essence loss from implants?

"Come on down to Implants Emporium! We've got a fresh shipment of PJ's Move-by-wire in 3 convenient grades. And remember, if anyone knows Thomas Anderson, let him know we've still got that one Grade 4 waiting for him!"
[/quote]

Sarcasm, sarcasm.

Seriously..it just means that Alpha Grade is the standard grade for level 4... +20% nuyen cost, -20% essence cost

[PJ]

Wakshaani, I really like what you did with it in 5E.  While I was not a fan of how it changed in 4E (the skillwire thing, you can get Agility boosts elsewhere), it was still the go-to Initiative booster over Wired Reflexes.  Now, each of them offer their own advantages and flavors.

Maybe they'll let you throw in an optional rule box (like gamma-grade) when the FAQ/Errata comes out that has a 4th level.  THAT would be sweet!

And I disagree that I should not expect to port something from 3E to 5E.  Does it require work?  Sure.  But to say it can't be done?  Nah...  What I'm basically doing is slightly higher Essence, much lower nuyen, mandatory drawbacks..., for what someone can get (or pretty close) with maxed out Muscle Toner, Reaction Enhancers, Wired Reflexes.

That being said, its really just a mental exercise.  Most of this one boils down to, 'If I were a runner, would I want to spend the nuyen on said Muscle Toner, Reaction Enhancers, Wired Reflexes, or would I want to buy this and deal with the drawbacks?'

So far, I understand the Essence cost makes it no across the board.  I originally intended to keep it close to the original and the new write up that stated the old was to expensive and invasive for widespread use.  Nuyen cost has been dropped.  If I drop Essence costs to 3,4,5,6, would that give some a reason to consider?  What if the mandatory TLE/x was staged?  The quality states 5-hits= minutes, so it could go (level+1)-hits= minutes.

[Marcus Gideon]

My whole point, plain and simple, is that you cannot have it work "the way it did before" because the fundamental laws of physics have changed.

It's not that a different company is making a different implant and just calling it "Move By Wire" to fool you. These are the same implants you would have got in 2060. Only now the secret code that dictates how the universe unfolds around you has changed. And the hidden numbers in the walls do different things than they did before.

There is no store that is going to sell antique "Move By Wire v1" that will do exactly what you're expecting from SR3 rulebooks. This is the SR5 universe, and things work differently here.

If that helps, think of it that way. We, the players at the table holding dice in hand with a piece of paper that represents somebody in the game... are traveling to parallel universes. In one of them, technology never really progressed past the 80's. Futuristic computers still string wires everywhere (you're lucky it's not vacuum tubes and punch cards). And "Move By Wires" works they way you're expecting. But then you step through the looking glass, into a different parallel universe, where technology has WiFi, and "Move By Wires" does things a little different now.

[PJ]

When the write up for the 5E uses wording to the effect that it was 'too expensive and invasive for widespread use', the 'inferior wired reflexes took its place' and 'though its come further than before, it still isn't quite the best' (or words to those effects, don't have my pdf right now), that tells me that yes, with a little work it can be like before.

The way I see it (in game), there was no reason to improve the system until Wired Reflexes could be combined with Reaction Enhancers.  Once that happened, suddenly being saddled with epileptic fits in order to be the fastest didn't look like such a great option.  So, they tweaked and peaked until it became what we have now; inferior to the original, but competitive with the WR+RE crowd.  I think of it like an engine; the most powerful ones go through gas quickly.  The more fuel efficient ones don't have the torque or the hp.  There is always a trade off.  In making M-b-W more survivable, it lost its power.

I also figured that the reason (in game) it now acts as skillwires is because when they toned it down to something more manageable, what once were pathways that were hard wired for Agility now were freed up to be utilized toward specific movements/routines (skillwires) instead of a general, all the time movement (Agility bonus).  I agree that you can't just hand wave the wireless everything away, and if I'm going with the idea that it is 5E M-b-W minus safeguards, then yes, it would still be wireless.  Just no reason to utilize it as there are now no wireless benefits.

I'm not looking to remake it exactly like before (none of the Initiative boosters work like they used too); I'm thinking that M-b-W became what it is now due to what I said above, but that there would be some individuals and some groups that don't care about its dangers and are bringing the older version back.  And the reason its cheaper is because that is the only way to sell it.  Otherwise, folks go with the reliable options.

Personally, I don't see a problem trading bad side effects and cheaper nuyen in order to get the same bonuses MT/WR/RE would give you.  But I'm one person, which is why I've thrown it out here to get input from the community.  Telling me Essence too high helps; telling me this is 5E and it just won't work doesn't.  I need to know why it would not work.

[Reaver]

Please go buy a brand new 1999 car from the dealer.


What's that?? They don't SELL brand new 1999 models in 2015? Why not??
●●●●

Now that may sound like its coming from left field, but its actually exactly what you are saying. They have a MbW system in 5e. Its in the book, with the listed advantages and disadvantages.

What YOU are saying is: "but now this old system has been retrograded to a new system! But its different from the new, new system..."  which makes little to no sense.

Companies invest millions to billions in these systems. To make a model, sell it, and then invest millions more to make a different model to sell in direct competition with their current model makes little sense.

But, It's your game. Do as you wish. But I wouldn't expect to find a lot of support for such designs from the internet. It may work just dandy for your home game however.

[gradivus]

Except there are people who buy used 1999 cars cause they're too cheap or don't have the money for a 2015 model.