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Tradition vs Religion anything in cannon?

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gradivus

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« Reply #15 on: <12-08-15/1923:02> »
Voodoo + Catholicism = Santeria

I had an aunt who practiced it.

To each their own.
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Raiderjoseph

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« Reply #16 on: <12-08-15/2014:08> »
@Senko
My bad. Also to add let's do a scenario where a shaman of the bear totem who is a priest of the tribe is actually worse(He is good at magic but not as good as) then the hermetic mage who happens to have Bear as a totem as well and isn't even a native american. What then? It's possible that devout faith may not be the only determining factor. Or heritage. I imagine skill comes along as well or you wouldn't need to train. So is a religious heritage magician who follows their religion more then another mage who follows the same religious heritage but is not as devout better or worse them the other based on that factor of devoutness... is magic solely based on belief is what I'm asking. I have no idea personally I'm a Newb. But what do you all think?
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« Reply #17 on: <12-08-15/2033:04> »
Keep in mind that the useage of 'Mage' and 'shaman' are not religious terms in SR, but reflect the individual path an awakened takes to unlock their mana -and thus cast spells.

A 'mage' takes a more studious view of magic, believing it can be defined, catalouged, threorized, and put into an equation..... they are 'scholars' and 'scientists' of magic, regardless of if they have a mentor spirit or not.

A 'shaman' takes a more holistic view of magic, finding it in chant, song, dance and art. They are the 'light hearted' and 'hippie flower children' of magic.

This boils down to HOW they learn new spells and even channel mana. A mage might study a thesis paper, or write a mathmatical formulae. A shaman might learn a dance, or create/study a work of art.

The same goes for casting:
A mage might mentally recite the theory of relativity, or genus of a species....
A shaman may recall a song, or visualize the Mona Lisa...
This extends to teaching too, hence why it is harder for a mage to teach a shaman or vise versa.

It is also why there is no disjoin between a Shinto mage or a shinto shaman. They both are followers of shinto, but the path they take would be different. The mage may focus solely on the scriptures of Shinto, while the shaman may focus on shinto artwork.


They are the same 'beast' at the core, they just walk different roads of their faith.
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Raiderjoseph

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« Reply #18 on: <12-08-15/2036:41> »
Keep in mind that the useage of 'Mage' and 'shaman' are not religious terms in SR, but reflect the individual path an awakened takes to unlock their mana -and thus cast spells.

A 'mage' takes a more studious view of magic, believing it can be defined, catalouged, threorized, and put into an equation..... they are 'scholars' and 'scientists' of magic, regardless of if they have a mentor spirit or not.

A 'shaman' takes a more holistic view of magic, finding it in chant, song, dance and art. They are the 'light hearted' and 'hippie flower children' of magic.

This boils down to HOW they learn new spells and even channel mana. A mage might study a thesis paper, or write a mathmatical formulae. A shaman might learn a dance, or create/study a work of art.

The same goes for casting:
A mage might mentally recite the theory of relativity, or genus of a species....
A shaman may recall a song, or visualize the Mona Lisa...
This extends to teaching too, hence why it is harder for a mage to teach a shaman or vise versa.

It is also why there is no disjoin between a Shinto mage or a shinto shaman. They both are followers of shinto, but the path they take would be different. The mage may focus solely on the scriptures of Shinto, while the shaman may focus on shinto artwork.


They are the same 'beast' at the core, they just walk different roads of their faith.

What determines who is the better caster then?
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« Reply #19 on: <12-08-15/2046:14> »
Nothing.

From a mechanics view: they are totally equal.

Its all style, and no substance.

A  fireball formula for a mage might be a thesis paper.

A fireball formula for a shaman might be a painting.

Both hurt the target equally.

Both can cast the spell without an outward appearance. (The mage is NOT standing screaming "E=MC^2!!!" Nor is the shaman prancing in a circle. Unless they want to...)

In game terms, there is ZERO difference between a mage and a shaman....

Fluff wise, there is, and prejudices abound depending on cultural factors: Shamans are held in higher regard in tribal communities, and mages in corporate...

But that is just that, fluff.
« Last Edit: <12-08-15/2054:57> by Reaver »
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Raiderjoseph

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« Reply #20 on: <12-08-15/2112:59> »
Nothing.

From a mechanics view: they are totally equal.

Its all style, and no substance.

But then... what about individual casting? Like... I dunno what to compare it to. Ok ok... Cadderly is a cleric from the Clerical... something... it's a quintet of books. Guy who did Drizzt Do'Urden did the series. In the game wisdom determines how good a cleric is with spells. In the books it appears as if his deity Deneir gives him favor and more powerful spells in relation to his growing faith(by the way if you ever think Drizzt Do'Urden is a Mary sue Cadderly is WORSE. First book... with only the help of two dwarf fighters and a self conflicted druid and his OP as hell monk girlfriend(note... I word this intention because guess what...) the 0 spells at all not even a cleric, his only weapons are yo yos(granted these are feasible weapons but really?...) and plot armor exploding darts... Jesus I don't even wanna use this guy as an example, defeats a high powered cleric with a demon possessed mace.) Gains enough magic powers through his faith to summon a storm of destruction, perform mind control on a dragon through a charm to make it friendly(this is a red dragon... to add to the fact this a dragon PERIOD), cast a magic earthquake without somatic or verbal components, and my personal favorite, when the goddess of magic falls and his own deity DIES... it dies here... he manages to cast several spells of what could only he considered 9th level magic during the FREAKING SPELLPLAGUE and traps and defeats a being so powerful that it SCARED AND SENT JARAXLE, THE GUY WHO PERFORMED MASS TREASON IN BROAD DAYLIGHT IN FRONT OF A PALADIN KING AND WALKED OUT OF THAT SITUATION WITH NO RETALIATION, BAERNE ON THE RUN in a demiplane...


I ranted and lost my point... uh... oh. Let me put it this way. What statistically determines individual casting skill in the shadowrun universe. What determines skill?
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« Reply #21 on: <12-08-15/2136:55> »
Magic rating and associated skills VS what you are trying to do. (Spellcasting to cast. Conjuring to summon. Ritual casting for rituals, yadda-yadda-yadda).

Neither mage nor shaman have any advantage or disadvantage.

As I said, mechanically they are exactly the same. The only difference is fluff.

There is no real limits placed on either, other then those that the player makes himself due to the choices he makes for attributes and skill selection and race.

ALL races can be either.
ALL ethnicities can be either.
They can BOTH cast the EXACT same spells, regardless of how they learn them.

The ONLY difference is fluff.


●●●●

SR is NOT DnD.... they are entirely seperate and handle magic in completely different ways. Trying to compare the two is like trying to compare fruits and veggies to cows....

One is a salad...
One is a real food.
:P
« Last Edit: <12-08-15/2143:50> by Reaver »
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Raiderjoseph

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« Reply #22 on: <12-08-15/2142:03> »
Magic rating and associated skills VS what you are trying to do. (Spellcasting to cast. Conjuring to summon. Ritual casting for rituals, yadda-yadda-yadda).

Neither mage nor shaman have any advantage or disadvantage.

As I said, mechanically the are exactly the same. The only difference is fluff.

Wow... a fictional canon that storytelling wise follows the formula of it's roleplaying aspect. Sign me up. I love this. For the most part Spellcasters unless fighting other casters of any sort are only weak against other casters or plot armored individuals in DnD fiction.

Edit: In my experience the actual game is a different story. Oh you think your magic is gonna the orc warlord and you just so happen to not have abjection powerful enough to keep him at bay. Did fireball not kill him? Sweet what's your backup plan? Oh wait... he gets HOW many attacks a round... half your Hp later... whoops. You didn't memorize that spell you know that would one shot him. Sorry. (I read your edit btw. I think I'm gonna enjoy the shadowrun universe.)
« Last Edit: <12-08-15/2149:36> by Raiderjoseph »
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« Reply #23 on: <12-08-15/2147:55> »
The biggest handy cap to mages/shamans in SR is...

The obscene amounts of lead and explosions directed to them after their first spell....


SR Rules of Combat:

Rule 1: Geek the mage FIRST!
Rule 2: shoot him again. Just to make sure.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Raiderjoseph

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« Reply #24 on: <12-08-15/2150:31> »
The biggest handy cap to mages/shamans in SR is...

The obscene amounts of lead and explosions directed to them after their first spell....


SR Rules of Combat:

Rule 1: Geek the mage FIRST!
Rule 2: shoot him again. Just to make sure.

See the above edit. And I think I'm gonna enjoy the shadowrun universe... I'll say it again.
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"As a Mage I have no issue with 'shoot the face first'. He deserves it and it's about time they stopped targeting me right from the go." -The Tekwych

Marcus

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« Reply #25 on: <12-08-15/2218:49> »
The biggest handy cap to mages/shamans in SR is...

The obscene amounts of lead and explosions directed to them after their first spell....


SR Rules of Combat:

Rule 1: Geek the mage FIRST!
Rule 2: shoot him again. Just to make sure.

All ya gotta due is make sure none of the Oppo lives through your first spell.
Not a big deal.
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Reaver

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« Reply #26 on: <12-08-15/2241:44> »
Depending on which side of the fence you sit, Shadowrun's official name is actually Magerun.

Due to the fact that magic can get obscenely powerful.

"Yes but how powerful?"

My mage, which I have played now since the winter of 1989 (started a few weeks after SR1 came out) is sitting a 4300+ karma.

He can turn just about everything within a 24meter radius (thats just under a 160 foot diameter) to ASH with a single spell. Cars, soldiers, little children, armored personnel carriers....

But the question becomes, can he survive the repercussions of such a spell?
And, simply put, "No he can't".

Unlike in DnD where the majority of fights happen in "the evil <insert trope here>  lair/maze/dungeon", the majority of SR combat happens in hallways of buildings, back alleys and almost entirely in cities. And cities have more police with more guns and bullets then he has chances to resist drain (the other limiter of mages - how destructive casting a spell is to THEM!).

smart (aka: want to keep living and free!) Mages learn fast that sometimes 'the magical option' is actually the worst option. Or they just leave combat to the 'combat monsters' (sammurai) <which is what I do> and act more as debuffers or enhancers to their teammates.

Add to that, magic is RARE! Depending on the source you read, only between 1 -5% of the world have any magical potential. Less who can actually DO something. And when something is rare and unknown, it breeds fear and hatred. (Hence the "Geek the mage First" combat rule. Seriously. It IS a rule!!)

You start throwing magic around, people shoot first, collect your body after. Then there are the 'rules' of magic.
No teleportation.
No raising the dead.*
No time travel.
No "magic guns"**


* Raising the dead doesn't bring back what died.
** ranged magical items are extremely limited. Both in terms of exactly what can be used (arrows, axes, knives, etc. NO GUNS!!!) And how long they stay "magical" for.. (if you are extremely skilled.... maybe a week. Tops.)

So there are limits to magic.

Mages are also extremely slow to progress. They need karma for EVERYTHING. And karma is slow to accumulate.

Money for a mage is almost useless without the karma as there is almost nothing a mage can buy to increase his abilities that:
A: doesn't also require karma (foci, spells, initiations)
B: doesn't also have the ability to hurt his magical abilities. (Bioware, cyberware, drugs)

A nage needs karma to improve every facet of himself:
Attributes
Skills
Magic rating
Initiation
Foci
They all take increasing amounts of karma. And you usually only get 4 to 8 per run. Meaning, a mage generally has to do several runs before they get their first boost/improvement to their character. (For example: For my mage to initiate AND raise his magic attribute it will cost me just under 200 karma. About 20 runs. Then the actual act will take several MONTHS. Time which I am NOT earning karma while the rest of the team will be.)

The other archtypes can just throw money around to get a boost to their character. Be it cyberware, bioware, new gear, decks, drones... (provided they HAVE the money. The top shelf stuff costs you an arm, leg and your first and second unborn children. Plus your kidney.) And then they are free to use karma to raise their skills and attributes on top of said gear.....

●●●●
Mages are slow to power, die quickly if your not careful, and exceedly frustrating in math. But the final result are powerhouses with almost no equal...... if you survive long enough (and your game lasts long enough! - took me 25+ years to get to my level of ability).
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Raiderjoseph

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« Reply #27 on: <12-08-15/2343:58> »
Depending on which side of the fence you sit, Shadowrun's official name is actually Magerun.

Due to the fact that magic can get obscenely powerful.

"Yes but how powerful?"

My mage, which I have played now since the winter of 1989 (started a few weeks after SR1 came out) is sitting a 4300+ karma.

He can turn just about everything within a 24meter radius (thats just under a 160 foot diameter) to ASH with a single spell. Cars, soldiers, little children, armored personnel carriers....

But the question becomes, can he survive the repercussions of such a spell?
And, simply put, "No he can't".

Unlike in DnD where the majority of fights happen in "the evil <insert trope here>  lair/maze/dungeon", the majority of SR combat happens in hallways of buildings, back alleys and almost entirely in cities. And cities have more police with more guns and bullets then he has chances to resist drain (the other limiter of mages - how destructive casting a spell is to THEM!).

smart (aka: want to keep living and free!) Mages learn fast that sometimes 'the magical option' is actually the worst option. Or they just leave combat to the 'combat monsters' (sammurai) <which is what I do> and act more as debuffers or enhancers to their teammates.

Add to that, magic is RARE! Depending on the source you read, only between 1 -5% of the world have any magical potential. Less who can actually DO something. And when something is rare and unknown, it breeds fear and hatred. (Hence the "Geek the mage First" combat rule. Seriously. It IS a rule!!)

You start throwing magic around, people shoot first, collect your body after. Then there are the 'rules' of magic.
No teleportation.
No raising the dead.*
No time travel.
No "magic guns"**


* Raising the dead doesn't bring back what died.
** ranged magical items are extremely limited. Both in terms of exactly what can be used (arrows, axes, knives, etc. NO GUNS!!!) And how long they stay "magical" for.. (if you are extremely skilled.... maybe a week. Tops.)

So there are limits to magic.

Mages are also extremely slow to progress. They need karma for EVERYTHING. And karma is slow to accumulate.

Money for a mage is almost useless without the karma as there is almost nothing a mage can buy to increase his abilities that:
A: doesn't also require karma (foci, spells, initiations)
B: doesn't also have the ability to hurt his magical abilities. (Bioware, cyberware, drugs)

A nage needs karma to improve every facet of himself:
Attributes
Skills
Magic rating
Initiation
Foci
They all take increasing amounts of karma. And you usually only get 4 to 8 per run. Meaning, a mage generally has to do several runs before they get their first boost/improvement to their character. (For example: For my mage to initiate AND raise his magic attribute it will cost me just under 200 karma. About 20 runs. Then the actual act will take several MONTHS. Time which I am NOT earning karma while the rest of the team will be.)

The other archtypes can just throw money around to get a boost to their character. Be it cyberware, bioware, new gear, decks, drones... (provided they HAVE the money. The top shelf stuff costs you an arm, leg and your first and second unborn children. Plus your kidney.) And then they are free to use karma to raise their skills and attributes on top of said gear.....

●●●●
Mages are slow to power, die quickly if your not careful, and exceedly frustrating in math. But the final result are powerhouses with almost no equal...... if you survive long enough (and your game lasts long enough! - took me 25+ years to get to my level of ability).

Thank god I'm an adapt... they seem more likely to survive combat... at least I HOPE so...
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"As a Mage I have no issue with 'shoot the face first'. He deserves it and it's about time they stopped targeting me right from the go." -The Tekwych

gradivus

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« Reply #28 on: <12-09-15/0006:46> »
If you initiate 14 times you can have Combat Sense [20].
That almost always help in surviving.
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Senko

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« Reply #29 on: <12-09-15/0056:21> »
Try a mystic adept spells, physical ability and even slower progression.

I'd rather like to see this 4,300 mages stat's.

Interesting that all traditions can have mages vs shamans while still being the same core tradition. I think I'm more a Shinto make than a Shinto shaman but am I a Shinto priest?

I'm not talking about divine vs arcane casting but I suppose the Moral and cultural trappings. Tom the shaman shaman and Tim the shaman mage both use the same tradition/methods/etc but are they viewed as priests or spellcasters, do they get trained as the tribal shaman because they're native American shaman tradition. If you see what I mean not the mechanics but the cultural view.

I'm a Shinto tradition with a mages outlook it can be quantified and controlled, even the spirits I bargain with have known tastes and attitudes. However when identified does the Corp train me in magic or magic and theology? Whether I wind up a Shinto priestess or just a follower of the Shinto tradition won't change my caster but it might change peoples reactions to me. It might mean the Corp puts me in charge of their shrine as opposed to their hospital. That's what I'm wondering about here the human world's interaction when you find out someone is of a tradition that has heavy religious underpinnings. If everyone knows all catholic mages are priests do all identified catholic mages get trained and ordained into the magic using order.