[belaran]

Hi all,

Unless I've missed something, somewhere, I don't think we have that many infos how on the Über Elfs from Tir Tairngire and Tir Na Nog are coping with CFD. Or did I miss something ? I don't think either there is any short plan to release on update on those countries as part of some guide ?


FYI, I'm working on idea for a run when my player are called in by the High Court (and the Telestrian) to take care of one of their own infected by CFD (most likely to lead her to some miraculous remedy, which could take'em to the "CFD-welcoming" Sioux Nation), thus my asking..

[Mirikon]

Well, the Tirs aren't well covered, regardless, because they aren't the 'usual suspects' of where the game designers set things. But, in general, CFD is most prevalent in the circles of those who have heavy augmentations, or engage in high end treatments such as geneware and the like. Most magic types shy away from augmentations, as a rule, because they interfere with your aura. And both Tirs (at least the ruling parties) are heavily magic or magic-influenced types. In Tir Tairngir, cyberware is, for lack of a better word, tacky, though the rich may indulge in bioware and geneware. But not as commonly as you would see in, say, the UCAS or Japan. In Tir Na Nog, however, the ruling parties are not only heavily magical, but they tend to go towards the more spiritual side of things, as well, which makes augmentations more rare amongst the upper classes.

Another key difference between the Tirs and other countries is the general lack of megacorps, and all the outside influences they bring. Fewer megas bringing in outside people (and their cultures of augmentation) means fewer means for CFD to enter the population.

Long story short, CFD wouldn't be as big a problem there as it would be in, say, Seattle or Manhattan. Are there head cases in the Tirs? Almost certainly. But there are likely far fewer of them than even the Bugs, and we all know how much the Tirs stomped on the Universal Brotherhood to keep that from taking root. If there is a head case near the circles of power, then it was almost certainly a deliberate infection. The question, then, becomes "Why would someone take the risk on the random nature of CFD infection when there are simpler and more effective ways of removing a rival from the political landscape?"

[belaran]

A deliberate infection ? Oh thanks for that, that is a brilliant twist indeed. My original idea was more an accident led to threat somebody from the Telestrian familly with nanotech, and my characters becoming "runner excellent" at CFD are contacted to escort (and protect against one self) the victim to the Sioux Nation. But, now they can also be in charge of the investigation, try to tracked down what happened...

Cool

[MijRai]

Also keep in mind both Tirs are somewhat isolationist and very interested in securing their borders.  Chances are, only highly functional CFD victims ever have a chance to get in. 

[Mirikon]

And I wasn't kidding on the fact that they SERIOUSLY guard against threats like bugs and other things that can do the bodysnatcher routine.

[DeathStrobe]

Actually, if we're going by the logical correlation that cyber raises the odds of being infected with CFD, the Tir Ghost's might be suffering an epidemic.

SR4 core had stats for the Ghosts and their essences were 3.9. So infection in the Ghosts seem likely.

[Mirikon]

Depends on when and where they got the cyber, DeathStrobe. It isn't the cyber itself, it is using nanites from infected sources that introduces Sybil. If the cyber was, say, from 2073 or earlier, then the infection risk would be negligible, at best. Likewise if the 'ware and nanites being used were produced inside the Tir, from Telestrian or another 'local' corp. Sure, they might not be the bleeding edge like the stuff from the Big 10, and it might not work for the majority of the population, but a government like the Tir can certainly arrange for their elites to be augmented with gear that never leaves Tir custody from production to implantation, and they're paranoid enough to do it. The CFD infections started in EVO and NeoNET, and spread from there, so the Tir, with limited contact with the Big 10, may have been able to limit cases to a small number.

Really, the only places better situated to contain or stop a CFD epidemic before it starts than the Tirs would be places like central Africa, where augmentations are incredibly rare.

[belaran]

Infection by Cyberware is definitely ground zero, but remember Butch comment in Stolen Souls about handling carefully CFD victims body... IMHO, a blood tranfusion (for instance) could also put enough nanites in someone blood stream to infect him or her. Also, equating CFD to cyberware is wrong - nanites have been used for traditional medecine - so one could get infected by simply surviving a simple traffic accident, before the product has been removed from the market.

So, even if Tirs has probably less infected people than most part, I would still expect them to have a fair share of head case. My real question was I guess how does the high prince, Telestrian - so let's the Tir's nobility, to the crisis. Immortal elf are probably quite in their comfort zone when it comes to Horrors coming from an outer plane, but must be a bit loss face to this very modern issue... Or ?

[Sendaz]

I imagine it would certainly disrupt their self image of elven superiority to be possibly rewritten by a non-elven persona.

Like Mirikon mentioned, they would react quickly to such and I would not put past them using fire as a 'treatment' on the majority of headcases found, keeping only a few in their strongest isolation cubes for research, because it could be passed by biological means as well.

Nobles so infected would probably get better treatment, but would also go away on 'vacation' or similar excuses rather than having the actual cause be made public.

Even the rumor of being a headcase probably would be damaging to one's image.

To date most have assumed the IE are probably immune but it is a good question. 
Yes, they are immortal and will heal most wounds given enough time, but it is not the rapid regeneration like that seen in Vamps or 4th ed shapeshifters.
Someone like Harley who is loaded for bear with stat enhancing quickened spells and contingency spells is pretty much immune as he would shake it off.
But would Frosty hold up as well? Hard to say. 
Ultimately she has a longer shelf life than the nanites, however damage to the mind could be done along the way, though it would probably be minor like forgetting where she left the keys or leaving a vague sense of deja vu from snippets of the CFD attempts to rewrite before being kicked around.

[DeathStrobe]

I'd refuse to believe that the Tir's are any better at controlling CFD then any of the megas. While the Bugs, Shedim, Horrors etc, are something that the IE's have had experience in the past with, a technological mind control is something new and unfamiliar. You cannot assense Headcases, because their auras are the same as they've ever been. The only change comes from telltale signs of emotional or behavioral differences. Which can be done just as easily by mundane means as well as magical.

And while IEs founded these nations, they are no longer in control of them, as always politics gets in the way...also dragons...

I fail to see any evidence that the Tir's can handle CFD in any fashion. While SR has always had the slant that elves can do it better, I personally feel that's dumb and the writers have been trying to do a better job at opening holes in police states that make it impossible to run in, like the Tir's and Japan.

[belaran]

I never felt that the "elf can do it better it" but rather "elf (and some other people) really believe they can do it better". Even before Tir went to shit at the end of the 2050's, the Tir Tairngire guidebook was pointing at some default in the system or inequity. But, back then, people was still "under the elf spell".

That being said, I agree with both statement formulated here :

1) Due to its nature, Tir is less susceptible to have CFD (but still have some)
2) Tir is no better at handling the crisis as the others nations or mega (but not worth either)

[Mirikon]

DeathStrobe, it isn't that "elves do it better", but the fact that for an epidemic to spread, one must first have exposure to it. In this case, the places best capable of staving off CFD would be the Tirs, and places like Africa. This isn't because of things they do better, but because of what they LACK, that other countries have. For the same reason, which country do you think would be most affected by a crash of the global data networks today, the USA or Somalia? Clearly Somalia would be better off, because they are far less reliant on data networks, what few actually are up and running in the country.

Places that are isolationist, deliberately low-augmentation, or third world hellholes with limited technical resources are going to be the safest from a disease like CFD. Yes, this is the opposite of what most people think of when doing disease tracking, but CFD is an atypical affliction, in that it is more likely to be prevalent in the most affluent and most advanced areas with the best medical care, while a disease like VITAS would be more easily fought there.

These are the advantages that Tir Tairngir has, which the UCAS does not when regarding CFD:
* Secure borders that they can (and do) patrol regularly, most of which are also inhabited by very lethal paracritters or stranger things.
* Secret police that can (and do) monitor people for changes in behavior (rooting out terror cells).
* Anti-augmentation bias in a good segment of the population (both due to magic, and elven snobbery about not 'needing' augmentations).
* Lack of megacorporate influence allowing for greater national controls.
* A less mobile population, resulting in any infection zones to be more easily contained.
* Willingness to use extreme prejudice to eliminate threats, and keep said actions from being commonly known.
* A more stratified society, with fewer people meeting those outside their 'level'.

Sure, those don't eliminate the possibility of a CFD infection, particularly in a sprawl close to the border like Cara'Sir, but together, they present a formidable defense for the majority of the country, especially those in power. It isn't that they fight it better (other than being willing to kill the infected and utterly destroy the remains with extreme prejudice), but that they've set themselves up so that they are less likely to get large numbers of infected in the first place, which makes containment easier. To use another example of real world diseases, what is easier to contain, one Ebola patient, or twenty? Because of how they're set up, Tir Tairngir is more likely to catch 'anomalies' when it is at the level of a hundred or so infected, rather than the thousand or so it might take the UCAS or megacorps to realize that there is a problem.