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Which spells should I drop?

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Senko

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« on: <12-27-15/0044:40> »
Trying to make a new list of spells to use as a mage from character creation and I've narrowed my final choices down to 18 which I need to get down to 12 maximum and I'd like some feedback on which ones to drop. I've divided this into the 18 I ahve it down too and the 6 I'm thinking of dropping but I'd appreciate feedback.

18 contender spells.

Chaotic World
Clairaudience
Clairvoyance
Heal
Hot Potato
Improved Invisibility
Increase Agility
Increase Charisma
Increase WIllpower
Levitate
Lightning Bolt.
Magic Fingers
Mind Probe
Physical Mask
Sterilize
Stunball
Trid Phantasm

6 I'm thinking to drop.
Clairaudience
Clairvoyance
Hot Potato
Increase Agility
Increase Charisma or Heal
Increase Willpower

Thoughts?

Facemage

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« Reply #1 on: <12-27-15/0121:12> »
For your list my 12 spell list would be:
Chaotic World
Heal
Hot potato
Improved invisibility
Levitate
Lightning Bolt
Magic fingers
Physical mask
Stunball
Trid phantasm
2 increase agility or increase drain stats spells (depending on your build, increase charisma is not good at chargen if you are an elf with 8 in charisma. If you are a mysad, agility boost will maybe be better and so on).

I don't remember what a sterilize spell does, but it's never in my spell lists at chargen.

Other good spells:
Opium den (which replaces chaotic world)
Influence (replace magic fingers or one of the increase drain stat spells)

Typically my combat spells are
Ball Lightning (good against drones also)
Clout (indirect, stun damage is more useful than physical)
Stun bolt (one direct spell is needed)

If I have room for only 2 combat spells, they are ball lightning and stun bolt.
If I specialized to illusion spells (+mentor spirit), I would select only those 2 spells. If I had combat spell specialization, I would select 3 combat spells.
« Last Edit: <12-27-15/0151:31> by Facemage »

Marcus

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« Reply #2 on: <12-27-15/0215:03> »
Never, never drop heal.

1 Chaotic World
2 Clairvoyance
3 Heal
4 Improved Invisibility
5 Increase WIllpower
6 Levitate
7 Lightning Bolt.
8 Magic Fingers
9 Physical Mask
10 Stun Bolt
11 Stunball
12 Trid Phantasm
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Senko

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« Reply #3 on: <12-27-15/0222:01> »
Straight mage or mage/face are generally what I prefer so I'm trying to develop a spell list with those two in mind with the mage part being a Shinto (Charisma) tradition. The you can only take 12 spells does make things difficult as there's so many good ones (and even more I'd like but which can't justify because they're flavour spells). Anyway bear in mind I'm trying to design a general spell list here of good solid choices for my mages, mage/faces I can always swap in and out different ones for specific characters which is why I didn't post a build to go with them.

Reasons for my choices for consideration and responses.

@Facemage
1) Really I would have thought increase charisma was generally usefull as even if your starting stat is 7/8 you still get an extra +4 potentially especially if going mage/face since making you more charismatic in a meet seems less potentially problematic than trying to influence the Johnson.

2) Sterilize is the kill all magic tracing spell. It's an AOE spell that skin flakes, stray hairs and spilled blood as well as rendering it useless for a material link.

3) I'll take a look at Opium Den don't know what it does offhand.

4) Influence vs Magic fingers is a bit of a toss up. Influence can make a doorman let you in (and possibly get angry about it afterwards) whereas magic fingers can manipulate things at a distance e.g. pushing the door release button from the inside which will get you into a lot of low security buildings with a manual door release but no staff. I'll give this some thought.

@Marcus
1) Only reason heal isn't a major deal to me is that it only works on a stabilized subject (whether that's with medkit or magic) if someone's bleeding out it does nothing.

@Both of you
1) I notice you didn't include increase reflexes or mind probe on your list of spells I thought those were fairly good choice's (mind probe can dig out information someone wants kept secret and increase reflexes makes you react quicker) mind explaining why you don't please since if both of you dropped them there's probably something I'm missing?

2) I went lightning bolt and stunball because that way I could hit a large group of enmies with stundamage and still have the lightning bolt as a direct attack against drones and the like. I was tossing up on those 2 with either lighnting bolt/stunball or stunbolt/ball lightning as I can see advantages either way. I'd say I was more support buff/debuff/spirits than direct combat so only 2 combat spells really so not a major priority for me and I'll probably only get 2. Seems I should have taken the other option of stunbolt/ball lightning.

Facemage

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« Reply #4 on: <12-27-15/0519:48> »
Increase reflexes is missing, true! I have played mysads too much. An ordinary mage needs increase reflexes always!

Increase charisma is a very good spell for a face but if you have 8 in charisma, it's very difficult to cast. F8 means 5 boxes physical drain, which is difficult. Furthermore, you take practically -2 sustaining penalty, because your only usable sustaining methods are quickening (not usable just after chargen) and F8 spirit of man (even more dangerous to summon than F8 spellcasting). Sustaining focus and focused concentration does not work.

Influence and magic fingers are both very good spells. This is only an suggestion. And it's difficult to take 12 spells because there are more good spells than slots.

Senko

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« Reply #5 on: <12-27-15/0554:35> »
Ah thanks. True about the spells and that's not counting the ones like Alter Temperature, purify fire, crank, healthy glow which would be fun to have but aren't likely to come up in a game enough to justify taking especially at char gen. I think I've been misreading the increase attribute spells this whole time I thought when it said . . .

The force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected.

it meant you needed to have force 1-4 not force 9-12 that changes things significantly thanks.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #6 on: <12-27-15/0931:36> »
This is what I would keep:

Chaotic World
Heal
Hot Potato
Improved Invisibility
Levitate
Lightning Bolt Ball Lightning (indirect single target spells are summed up as "it's a gun that can be dodged just as easy as a gun, but it also always bites you whether you hit or miss," and they suck for the obvious reason I just mentioned)
Physical Mask
Sterilize
Stunball Stunbolt (recklessly cast reagent-enhanced Stunbolt >>>>>> Stunball)
Trid Phantasm

Add in: Increase Reflexes, Influence

Why I didn't take Mind Probe: I have never needed or gotten mileage out of it that a simple Intimidation check or casting of Control Thoughts (and having them just tell me) didn't, or that one of my other teammates couldn't get through other means.

Why I didn't take Magic Fingers: because it's the B&E guy's job to do the things this spell facilitates, and I don't need to be obviating everyone else's job.

Why I dislike the Increase X spells: need to be sustained, any of them that matter need to be high Force, and I find it cheesy to boost your Drain stats even higher with spells

Why I love Hot Potato: it's a true save-or-suck which, if done right, doesn't require sustaining. If all the enemies drop their guns, great, cast something else on the new pass as their action economy gets screwed up. If people don't drop, great, sustain it so they suck the penalties, and also cast something else on them.
« Last Edit: <12-27-15/0940:43> by Whiskeyjack »
Playability > verisimilitude.

Rooks

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« Reply #7 on: <12-27-15/1730:35> »
my usual picks are

heal - people get hurt use after medical care if possible

detect life/detect enemies basic go to detect ambush spell
forboding aoe debuff spell can cause enemies to flee in panic which can be good if you took the time to set up traps

control thoughts/influence/Mind Probe basic screw you I win spell can take over peoples minds control thoughts makes whatever you want them to do do it like it was their idea take out a gun shoot their buddies throw a grenade at them  because they are working for the enemy sort of thing influence is more of a suggestion cant really control what they are going to do just the end effects mind probe is good to read minds to hack peoples mind if someone clams up under intimidation or is knocked out

Lightning Ball does damage to drones in terms of matrix damage and reduces init and its aoe sign me up

magebolt basic screw you to spirits awakened/mage good if you dont have banish skill

Sterilize no traces good if your team gets hurt and starts bleeding dont want people casting curse on material links to find your safe house then set up a sniper

Fashion turn your basic run of the mill armored jacket into a business suit or maybe a security guard uniform permnament

Levitate catch people from falling or if you forgot your climbing gear or need to carry out the mcguffin and its too heavy frees up your teammates to still be 100% combat effective should the corp sec shows up weapons drawn no need to drop the heavy item can also be used on pieces of metal for mobile cover or riot shields

Then its up to you

Vehicle Mask Turn your teams vehicle into a corp vehicle get spoof chips and morphing license plates and since you used fashion everyone is in security uniform already so you dont need physical mask on all of your team mates

Physical Mask good for the switchero or if someone doesnt have any door opening tools can fool sensors into thinking your someone else just be sure that someone else isnt already in the building or it will log a double entry without an exit logged which will arise suspicion

Trid Phantasm make it so you are rolling with a dragon or whatever your hearts desire probably could replace physical and vehicle mask and shroud all of your team into looking at whatever you want can get abit dicey if anyone moves within aoe not sure if they get affected too

Double Image useful spell good if you just need a recording of someones eye prints finger prints voice print gait etc dont even have to kidnap them used it in one run when we got the mc guffin but it was bio metric maglocked just casted this and the lock was no longer an issue

Silence Hush Stealth AOE no-sound spell can be useful hush good against barghest howls stealth is just a one person target spell or you can cast

Sound Barrier Whats that the alarm was set off? no one in the security room can hear it cause its outside its AOE course theres other ways security could find out whats going on but thats why you have matrix support to disable that

Increase Reflexes init booster nuff said

Stunbolt incase you left your taser in the runner van

nap sleep slumber (species type) not really listed but this is a variant of the one less slay slaughter spell I came up with seems logical it should fit in with the rest of the spells usually pick humans as the species type as there seems to be a lot of human security guards

halflingmage

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« Reply #8 on: <12-27-15/1757:55> »
Before  picking a spell list I think you need to further define what kind of magician you are running.  Do you specialize in combat?  Mental manipulations?  Illusions and trickery?  What is your role in combat, and what do you want to be able to offer outside of combat?

Some things that are good choices for just about everyone-

Heal
Improved Invisibility
Increase Reflexes if you are not a mystic adept.  You really should have a initiative boost that you can sustain without penalty, be it adept power, or spell with focus or focused concentration.

I am personally skeptical about attribute buff spells, unless you have a way to sustain them without penalty.  You will likely be buffing attributes that are already high, requiring high force spells, and you have to take a penalty of two dice (one with a dose of psyche)  to have that up.  Maybe worth it for boosting up a drain stat, but even then its hard to say.  Trying to buff agility on a team member who has a very high agility already and may be near their enhanced maximum already is even less appealing. 

Debuffs on the other hand, are bread and butter for magicians in 5th edition.  In a serious fight I think the battle plan for the magician is to (1) get to cover, (2) get a spirit in the fight, and (3) debuff enemy targets.  I personally think this is important enough to burn two spell slots on, and suggest both a single target and an area affect debuff, either the chaos line or the confusion line.  Chaos has higher drain but it works on drones.  Its nice to have the AOE if the GM is kind enough to bunch up the enemies for your, but drain is higher and the targets can just move out of the AOE.  That can still be a benefit, as it denies an area of the battlefield and may force the enemy to choose between staying to cover or getting away from the debuff, etc.  But there are times when an AOE does not work.  In close quarters you might get friendlies, and it prevents your melee specialist or your fire elemental from getting up close and personal without getting hit as well.    My personal choice- Confusion and Mass Confusion.  Leave the drones to the decker, or for that matter to the guy with the assault rifle, they aren't very tough.

Ok thats 5.  For number 6, Stunbolt.  Its good for very tough or very dodgy targets the rest of the group is having trouble with, and you can shoot at things in astral with it.  Part of your job is anti-spirit defense. 

As to more combat spells its kind of a personal choice.  If you take some indirect spells go with a lightning spell of some kind.  Indirect spells are kind of meh in terms of how much damage they actually do.  Lightning spells come with an initiative penalty and a small dice pool debuff, however.  Think of them as a debuff that also does some damage as a bonus.  See previous discussion on AOE vs single target.  If you are going to take indirect spells you should probably bite the bullet and take two here as well, one single target and one aoe.  I suggest taking the lightning spells as limited spells with a fetish.  A fetish based lighting bolt can be cast at force 8 for only 3 drain, and it does 8P -8 AP plus the debuff effects. Its not too hard to get mid to high teen dice pools on combat spells on a starting character if you want to go this way. 

Lets assume you have taken two indirect combat spells, so you have 8 on your list at this point,  From here it is really wide open.   My personal choices from your list would be levitate, physical mask, and trid phantasm.  I would also go off your llist and get Influence, its just so incredibly helpful, its basically Jedi Mind Trick. 




Senko

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« Reply #9 on: <12-27-15/1931:27> »
I like templates I can modify so I'm trying to develop a list of 10-12 spells that would be good for just about any mage concept then when I'm making a specific one I can add or remove spells from that to fit.

ikarinokami

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« Reply #10 on: <12-28-15/1804:38> »
Every mage should have / ought to have heal.

Kincaid

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« Reply #11 on: <12-28-15/1844:03> »
This is a carry over from a separate thread, but if you're invested in hiding things as a mage (Imp. Invis, Summoning with an eye towards Concealment, etc.), then you should look into Manascape.  Not a top 6 spell, but borderline top 12.
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bdyer

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« Reply #12 on: <12-28-15/2014:14> »
This is a carry over from a separate thread, but if you're invested in hiding things as a mage (Imp. Invis, Summoning with an eye towards Concealment, etc.), then you should look into Manascape.  Not a top 6 spell, but borderline top 12.

Seconded, Especially if your speced for illusion.