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Is born rich worth it for a mage?

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Senko

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« on: <12-27-15/0900:49> »
I'm just wondering most of my mages wind up with E priorities and while I can scrounge up the karma to get gear I usually hit the 10 karma trade limit before I can fully equip the character (limited magical gear, no vehicle, etc) simply because of the high cost of SINs/Licences so I'm curious do people think born rich is worth it for a mage to get that limit upped to 40 which is enough to get a nice basic package of gear for a mage?

bdyer

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« Reply #1 on: <12-27-15/0914:08> »
I'm just wondering most of my mages wind up with E priorities and while I can scrounge up the karma to get gear I usually hit the 10 karma trade limit before I can fully equip the character (limited magical gear, no vehicle, etc) simply because of the high cost of SINs/Licences so I'm curious do people think born rich is worth it for a mage to get that limit upped to 40 which is enough to get a nice basic package of gear for a mage?

I personally would say no because you lose focused concentration or bonding for a foci .  Your better moving the resources priority up one step.

Senko

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« Reply #2 on: <12-27-15/1027:42> »
In normal priority that's not so  bad I don't mind human metatype E but in sum to 10 it costs me attributes or skills and honestly I already feel like I"m struggling to get "acceptable" on both of those, and resources, and magic sigh they cut things way to close to the bone for a generalist like me to feel comfortable. Still I'll see what I can do.

FST_Gemstar

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« Reply #3 on: <12-27-15/1257:37> »
Depending on how you balance it, sometimes it is worth it to invest more in resources than you are used to and drop meta or magic or attributes. If you are willing to take 'ware, not maxamizing magic becomes efficient, and you can buy up stat gaps with 'ware. This might leave you with other money and karma to buy foci and other gear. I guess it's roundabout, but if you are sum-to-tenning the character, it may work out for you.

Csjarrat

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« Reply #4 on: <12-28-15/0428:05> »
Meta at e and resources at d gives 50k +20k from karma to start with. More than enough for a few foci and good level starting gear
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Shadowjack

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« Reply #5 on: <12-28-15/0534:25> »
One important thing to remember is that everything if worth it if you find it fun. Many Shadowrun players have a tendancy to number crunch and follow efficiency patterns but I think it's always important to remember that every character is unique and the player with a thousand options is going to have more fun than the player with a hundred. I also highly advise not falling into habits of always taking the same things because they're powerful or they feel too good to pass up, such practices are very restrictive and detract from the uniqueness of characters.

Additionally, whether you take the quality or not, I find it to be very fun and immersive to play a character with very limited resources. While having vital things is prudent it can be a lot of fun to be at a disadvantave and it gives you a lot to look forward to. Another consideration is that magicians are more Karma dependant than most character types so bolstering your attributes and skills as much as possible before the game begins can pay off in the long run.
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Senko

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« Reply #6 on: <12-28-15/0855:59> »
The problem is how limited. Nuyen, attributes, skills are all pared right down to the bone so whenever I make a mage it feels like a huge struggle to make a character rather than a set of numbers, of course a large part of that is the "You should have spellcasting, summoning, perception . . . at 6 with specializtion" attitude of a lot of people. 26k would be enough just for gear but SIN's/Licences are very expensive a rating 4 SIN by itself burns 10k of my starting nuyen at priority E then throw in 3 licences at 4 as well magic, combat magic (Per combat spell if your doing it per the rules) and firearms throws in another 2,400. If I want a vehicle that's another 3k minimum and a lodge at say rating 4 is 2k. I have yet to buy lifestyle, weapons, armour, a comlink it goes on. At this stage I've spent 17,400 leaving me a mere 9,600. A low lifestyle cuts 2.5k per month off that.

Of course I could go A magic, B attributes, C Skills, D resources and E metatype but then I start feeling like I don't have enough skill points buying up the "required mage skills" to 6 with specialization because for me to feel like the character is a character rather than a stack of numbers I couldn't care less about I want things like pilot ground vehicle, computer use, a bit of negotiation and etitquette so they know how to not shove their foot down their throat (more if I'm trying for a mage/face) it goes on. Maybe I'll try human with B magic, atttirbutes, skills, D for resources (50k is enough) and E for metatype with the extra point raising magic to 5.
« Last Edit: <12-28-15/0902:55> by Senko »

Shadowjack

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« Reply #7 on: <12-28-15/0952:47> »
It sounds like you're being somewhat influenced by the minmaxing/power gaming mentality of many Shadowrun players. I think a big reason they do this is because the priority system practically encourages it, going for thematic elements often means you're dumping karma down the drain. I like to stay true to my character at all costs, and I see you do as well. So I know the pain you're experiencing here. One thing I'll say is that there are no required skills, not exactly. It is perfectly fine to start the game with Spellcasting 4 instead of 6. You don't absolutely need to have Conjuring. People say that mages should always have ranks in Pistols but that isn't actually true, it is quite likely that you won't even need that pistol and if you get caught in a bad situation where a pistol would save your ass, oh well, your character just doesn't know how to use pistols and you suffer the consequences. But what about all those other situations where that extra karma you saved on pistols got pumped into your foci? It's all about tradeoffs. Then there are SIN's, people say you always need 2 to 4 or more at max rating to start the game. That is false. People are afraid to have their character get into bad situations so they try to create what they think the perfect runner is, but the truth is that there is no perfect runner.

It seems like you think that you need to purchase spell formulas during character creation, as far as I know, you don't. They are included as part of the priority system. Speaking of that, have you tried Point Buy? That's my preferred method and it is imo the best system for people that like to  have very well fleshed out and realistic characters, not just combat monsters with perception and sneaking, I see that alll the time, those are cardboard characters made by people that want to do maximum damage.

It seems to me that you want to have priority E allocated to resources but can't find a comfortable way to manage it because there are so many things you feel are important. Shadowrunners that actually have next to nothing for gear are probably in a tight spot for some reason or another. Perhaps they were robbed, perhaps they had to pay everything they had and sell most of their gear to pay a gambling debt. Maybe you had a Force 8 Weapon Focus but you don't any more. Maybe you used to be a hot shut runner riding a Eurocar Westwind 3000 but you got fucked over somehow. There has to be a reason you have badass attributes and skills pertaining to shadowrunning but you don't actually have much gear. I think you should play with priority E for resources like you planned but start out in very rough shape. I'm talking about no SIN, no vehicle, no foci. You have your lodge and some necessities, perhaps a few toys you managed to hold onto. You are basically starting from scratch. Will it suck without a fake SIN? Probably, but you might be able to get one quickly. If not, oh well, shit happens. You suffer it out, it is a game after all. I think it will all work out for you in the end and you'll be glad you did it. And I would take power gaming advice with a grain of salt, it doesn't really matter because a good GM is going to put you against appropriate challenges anyway. The guy with 20 attack dice and nothing else on his character sheet is going to have fun killing but that's basically all he can do, don't take advice from those types of players.

And yeah, everyone should play their way and have fun. If they like that  kind of character and have a good time, great, but I can tell that you want something a little more realistic.
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Senko

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« Reply #8 on: <12-28-15/1043:23> »
If your doing point buy spells are free up to a point then they cost 5 karma each. That said yes I am being influenced by the mentality of the people here, even so there's only so far I'm willing to bend before I wont budge any further e.g. spending points on computer use or ground vehicle.

I'll play around with priority E and see how it can work (Could maybe justify it as a runner new in town with a few recommendations but no gear yet), I'd appreciate if you could take a look at http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=22921.0 and let me know what you think so I can see how someone with a similar view see's it (I've pushed this character about as far as I'm willing to go and even there I'm uncomfortable with all the 6/specializations I have there and other issues).

EDIT
Honestly my favorite mage is one I made with life modules. 6 in sorcery and conjuring, at least 1 rank in all other magic skills, a nice selection of other skills (negotiation, computer, etiquette etc), a huge number of knowledge skills.
« Last Edit: <12-28-15/1120:42> by Senko »

Strange

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« Reply #9 on: <12-28-15/1343:27> »
My life module mage is very fun.  I like the fact that you have pretty playable characters with a more realistic spread of skills.  I only added some points to blades and one point to sorcery and I was done.  He also has some negative qualities that I might not have thought about taking, and it helped shape his character.  The downside for life modules with awakened is everything costs a good amount of karma, from the awakened type to spells and any foci you might want. 

I also had a hard time bulding what I wanted at following the advice from these forums, but in the end it helped me alot.  I rebuilt my guy like 10 times before I was happy, though.  There are areas he needs work, but luckily I am not unhappy with that!

As far as edge goes, a lot of people put emphasis on the value of edge.  At our table, all of us have 2 edge as we felt that was a decent number.  On retrospect, however, mages can get a lot out of edge use, so I might have thought about taking that number higher.  With life modules I couldn't make it worth it, however.

gradivus

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« Reply #10 on: <12-29-15/0140:12> »
If you are just a bit short on cash In Debt II gives you 10k without an unreasonable interest rate (1500/month)... the people who I see that do characters w/In Debt XV are either insane or their GM is named Monty Hall.
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Senko

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« Reply #11 on: <12-29-15/0431:17> »
Yes at that level your spending a fortune just to owe the same amount.

Shadowjack

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« Reply #12 on: <12-29-15/0929:52> »
I think your character looks great right now. If you're still looking to shave off some points here and there I would consider the following.

Pistols: Useful but expensive and overrated imho. If needed thematically it is fine but if you are desperate for points this would be the first thing I'd remove.
Arcana: This skill has very vague/non-existant rules in some cases. I'm wondering if you would end up using it at all. It might just be easier to use this point somewhere else.
Perception: Very good skill to have on all characters. However, you could consider getting glasses or some other visual device with Rating 3 Visual Perception added, which only  costs 1500 nuyen.
Ritual Spellcasting: This is a tricky one. I have a feeling that it's going to be some time until you get to use it. Iirc ritual spellcasting involves a leader and a teamwork test. So even with 1 rank you would still probably do fine and with 3 ranks you wouldn't be the leader.
Contacts: I noticed that most of your gear is either legal or could be supplied by your Talismonger, are you sure you need a Fixer too? I think it's totally fine but just looking for any possibilities at this point :)

Regarding being a Face/Magician. I think it can be done pretty easily if you take Increase Charisma and invest in some fashionable armor from Run & Gun. Your dice pool would be formidable and you already have most of what you need. I think people often comment that Mr. Johnson has X amount of dice so you need more than that to be a Face. That isn't really true imo and not only can he roll poorly, you can roll well, and on top of that I really don't think the GM should use the same stats for every Mr. Johnson. Another consideration is that you could break out of the Influence skill group during character creation and specialize more in Negotiation if you want.
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Senko

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« Reply #13 on: <12-29-15/0935:47> »
1) I'm never sure about Arcana to be honest.
2) Only 1,500 on the second build is impossible as even 10 yen puts me over the karma - nuyen gear limit. Maybe I'll swap the contacts flare link out at a later date.
3) Yep but I think you can be a poor leader of a ritual just consisting of you which is useful for ward/watcher's, of course I could be wrong.
4) I'm treating the fixer as per the description right now most of the gear is legal but they're going to be the procurer for everything I need vehicles, weapons, drugs. More future proofing than anything else.
5) Face/mage issue for me is the skill points more than anything else I barely feel I have enough for a normal mage much less a face/mage. Of course that assumes the forums "6 + spec for competency" attitude.

Shadowjack

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« Reply #14 on: <12-29-15/1250:28> »
I would go with this. Assuming B Magic and B skills.

Spellcasting 6 +specialization
Conjuring 4
Assensing 4
Pilot Groundcraft 3
Influence Skill Group 3
Athletics Skill Group 2
Counterspellling 4
Etiquette 4
Con 1 (purchased with Karma)
Computer 1 (purchased with karma)

For meets I would summon a spirit and let them sustain Increase Charisma for you. The skills I outlined gived you room to tweak things to your preferences. The main thing I see here is that you don't need to have a bunch of 6's. Another option you have is to drop Conjuring altogether and focus on a strong mix of spellcasting and being a face. You could have something like this,

Spellcasting 6 +specialization
Assensing 4
Pilot Groundcraft 5
Influence Skill Group 3
Athletics Skill Group 2
Counterspellling 6
Etiquette 6
Con 1 (purchased with Karma)
Computer 1 (purchased with karma)
Perception 1 (purchased with karma)

Regarding con, computer and perception, I think it isn't a bad idea to skimp on those areas. You have other members on your team that can help with these things and even a single rank in Con is going to be decent with a 6 Charisma because it doesn't have to be something you rely on, instead it would be used only when truly needed. A lot of spells can replace Con, you should take a look around at spells like Mind Probe and similar spells. Let me know what you think of these examples and I'd be glad to write up another one based on your preferences.

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