[anchoress]

Hey guys!

After playing for a year now i have to admit, that my first character build was not as good as i thought - or at least not as good for the group i am playing in. To take a look at my character, you can read this thread here:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=19248.msg343057#msg343057
TL;DR I played a stealth adept with some combat abilities.

Our team looks like this:
- elf combat mage (combat spells [+healing and the inititative booster], spirit summoning, driving skills)
- human decker (LOG 9 [Ware] and high skill values in decker and stealth skills)
- orc street sam (again, nothing special, big guns and heavy armor)
- human cybersam (cyberlimbs, close combat specialist)
- I've heard about a shaman maybe joining in the future

My char had increased reflexes,  an initiative of 11+4d6 (= 25 on average), a chameleon suit (9 armor) and an HK Urban Combat (Dmg 10, AP -1 [APDS ammunition]). Shooting with 12 dice seemed decent (AGI 6, Automatics 4, Smartlink 2), defending with 11 as well (Agile Defender not included). In the end i had to face the fact that my damage was way to low to hurt (or the armor piercing value.. or both), and that 9 armor is not nearly enough to survive a firefight.
Allright, i don't HAVE to fight all the time. I can go sneaking, right? Yeah... not really. Actually, the decker is always faster than my character in opening doors and security systems. And so we just went in some buildings side by side, me walking besides the decker, watching her doing all the work, rolling some tests and being useless. It wouldn't have made any difference if my character would have been somewhere else. Okay, one time i picked her up and "glued" us under the ceiling with hanging time until the guard has passed by. But this was a special thing, nothing to talk about after a couple evenings of doing nothing important at all.

So after a year of almost doing nothing i think it is time to face the facts: I need a new character.
TL;DR What to add to a combat summoner mage driver, a stealth decker and 2 street sams (1 ranged, 1 cc)? Before you scream "FACE", please keep in mind i have almost no knowledge about the world in Shadowrun and only 1 year of experience. Maybe it would be possible for me, but i don't really want to invest (again) a lot of time reading into all of the cons, gangs, etc. just to recognize that the caracter is not useful at all.

Ah, we are playing karma system, currently at a value of ~950 points and every team member has earned something around 150k-200k nuyen. Swat armor, ares alpha, ruger warhawk, apds ammunition - all of these are normal things for the group. Dice pools of 15-20 are standard as well. Really, i'm no min-maxer at all so i desperately need some help here 

[bdyer]

I can certainly understand not wanting to be the face.  The basics are covered, so I guess the question here, is what do YOU want to play?  We can certainly help you build it

Stealth?
Combat?
Utility?
Rigger?

[Whiskeyjack]

Rigger wheelman is a great option.

Or go sam-life B&E sniper/support. Sure, the decker can open the doors, but can he go through a ventilation shaft to check things out or set up a flanking maneuver?

[anchoress]

The basics are covered, so I guess the question here, is what do YOU want to play?  We can certainly help you build it

Thanks a lot  Actually, this is hard for me to answer. Because I'm more the player who thinks about a good story and background and creates a character out of that. In fanatasy rpgs i don't play the knight in shining armor with a fency two-handed sword and charge ability, but the wandering smith who got trained by his uncle to use a sword, with the dream to have his own home one day and bad luck with women ( just as an example - i think you get the point).

In Shadowrun - or at least my player group - this is hard to do, because i will end up with a jack of all trades and/or street level character again while everyone else is min-maxing. So let me answer your question from another perspective: i won't play every weekend. Actually we will play ~6 times/year. So the easier the character rules the better. And: when our mage and decker are acting in astral plane/matrix it takes time. A lot of time. So, when they do their actions and rolls it uses up 10-15 minutes. When it was my turn i was like "i run from a to b". And waited for another 15 minutes. If there is a character role, that is actually able to DO something USEFUL for a group like this before or at a run, i will be happy. And the icing on the cake would be the possibility to be a factor in combats. I don't know if i'm asking for the swiss army knife here, but can you think of some char concept matching this conditions?

From what i see with my (limited) knowledge:
Stealth is done by our decker.
Combat is done by our mage and 2 sams.
Utility sounds fun. I like it to be a support player, but I'm afraid to do nothing except casting 1-2 spells and staying in the back of the van...?
Rigger sounds like a lot of rules... and i don't have the new book.

Sure, the decker can open the doors, but can he go through a ventilation shaft to check things out or set up a flanking maneuver?

Hi Whiskey! Yep, he did. A lot of stealth dice and points in demolitions did the thing here  This is one of the main reasons i will stop playing my character. Being just a worse version of someone else (at least matching the results) is no fun at all.

And: "sam-life B&E sniper/support" - I know what this stuff means except the "-life" and the "/support" part Would you mind to explain this char concept to me? Sorry, I'm not as experienced with SR as i would like to be 

[ZeldaBravo]

In terms of raw powergaming I think that a mage is a best force multiplyer for a team if that's what you're asking. You can specialise in debuffs or overpowered spirit summoning. A face is a close second,  easily rivaling a mage just because you always know a right guy when needed, or at least you can meet and befriend the right guy. And nothing prevents you from being both a face and a magician.
But what do you really want to do?
1 year of experience is surely enough to learn how things are at your table and that is what matters most, not just some abstract knowledge of the lore. Speaking of which, while YOU may not know something, your CHARACTER might have the knowledge. That's why we have knowledge skills right?

[anchoress]

But what do you really want to do?
1 year of experience is surely enough to learn how things are at your table and that is what matters most, not just some abstract knowledge of the lore. Speaking of which, while YOU may not know something, your CHARACTER might have the knowledge. That's why we have knowledge skills right?

I know, i know. But... this leads to this really awkward situations:
Player: "I talk to him."
GM: " Okay, what do you say?"
Player: "I don't know, i talk about topic X, i have a knowledge skill for it. And i want to roll a subsequent con test."

I have no problem in doing this with some hardware/electronics/shooting stuff. Players don't have to have a masters degree in science to play a decker, but it's still a roleplaying game... if you don't talk your way through conversations, it's all about rolling dice. I would feel bad playing like this. I can maybe talk, i play rpgs for almost 25 years now, but i know almost nothing about the world... i would feel like abusing the system and putting my mates in an uncomfortable situation. So i rather want to avoid that.

And about what i want: I can create a character around a concept, I don't really care. Right now i'm just searching for some input to find a concept that let's me feel useful. I don't want to hear the GM saying "Sorry you couldn't make it to the last run. But, to be honest, your character really isn't any help for the group at all, right?" again... -.-

[ZeldaBravo]

"Sorry you couldn't make it to the last run. But, to be honest, your character really isn't any help for the group at all, right?"

...ouch

[anchoress]

"Sorry you couldn't make it to the last run. But, to be honest, your character really isn't any help for the group at all, right?"

...ouch

Yep. Don't get me wrong, i like all the people in my player group, but i feel a bit lost right now. I've send the GM a few ideas about my actual character, like "She wants to take her little sister  to her family in japan, because it got too dangerous in Seattle." Her sister is 16 years old, living at a boarding school for 5k ny/month and the main reason my character went into the shadows - to pay the bills! The Draco Foundation owes me one and i saved up around 120k nuyen. In the last run we pissed off some critical politicians in seattle and had some assassins going after us. In my opinion this could be the start for a nice, one-evening run with some team mates, some critical damsel-in-distress situations, action and tension. I got the answer "I don't really see this working. Maybe you can make a run in Japan to get back into your family and ask your mates to help you out?"
*shrug*

[Herr Brackhaus]

I still say go with Face. It's the one thing your team really doesn't have, so you'll have plenty of time to shine. If you have to take 15-20 seconds to come up with a convincing lie so you can roll con, so be it. I'm sure the mage and decker sometimes have to think about what they want to do and evaluate their options, you shouldn't suffer as a player if your character has more skills than you.

Everyone has to start somewhere; I had a lot of fun playing a Face my first time, but I also had a group that was supportive of my growth as I wasn't particularly fast on my feet at the time. *shrugs* Just my two cents, based on the composition of the existing group.

[anchoress]

I still say go with Face.

Allright, I'll give it a try (at least building one). Any idea what type of build would also be good in combat, so i'm not just a walking pile of charisma? Troll-Face maybe? Or a mage-face? Have to look up some builds, i guess.

[Whiskeyjack]

Hi Whiskey! Yep, he did. A lot of stealth dice and points in demolitions did the thing here  This is one of the main reasons i will stop playing my character. Being just a worse version of someone else (at least matching the results) is no fun at all.

...good god. :\

And: "sam-life B&E sniper/support" - I know what this stuff means except the "-life" and the "/support" part Would you mind to explain this char concept to me? Sorry, I'm not as experienced with SR as i would like to be 

OK, my phone changed "lite" to "life," hence some confusion. What I would mean is a third shoot character, who is also good at B&E. However, you just confirmed that traditional B&E is pretty much unnecessary with your group - though that is an issue you may want to raise with the GM in an OOC fashion, who really should not brush it off. It's really his job to not let the decker steal the show with that and do everything if you had a legit infiltrator.

That said, I dunno. At this point, with what you've said, I'd go rigger/wheelman, use micro drones for intel and bugging places, gunnery support with a Bumblebee or Rotodrone + sniper rifle.

[Herr Brackhaus]

I still say go with Face.

Allright, I'll give it a try (at least building one). Any idea what type of build would also be good in combat, so i'm not just a walking pile of charisma? Troll-Face maybe? Or a mage-face? Have to look up some builds, i guess.

Troll Face is doable, but if everyone else is minmaxing it'll be a challenge.

As nearly everything a face does is based on Charisma, it's one of the easiest archetypes to add a secondary focus to. You'll want higher willpower to maintain your composure and resist other people's social tests, and you might want to check with your GM how he feels about Leadership. The latter can be a great way to boost your team mates actions if the GM is lenient about its usage, but is very dependant on GM interpretation.

I'd personally invest in some language and knowledge skill, some nice clothing and concealable firearms, maybe a bit of medical on the side just in case, but this all kind of depends on the table.

[bdyer]

I still say go with Face.

Allright, I'll give it a try (at least building one). Any idea what type of build would also be good in combat, so i'm not just a walking pile of charisma? Troll-Face maybe? Or a mage-face? Have to look up some builds, i guess.

i would/ like to combo faces with disguise ability for impersonation.  Adept or mysad

Focusing on disguise/palming/influence/acting/spellcasting/ perc
Use adept powers for con/disguise

For mysad
Magic a
Attributes b
Skills c
Meta

Bod 3
Str 1
Agil 2
Reaction 3
Charisma 8
Intuition 5
Will 3
Log 3

[Tarislar]

Okay, so, I took a look at  your character breakdown in the link.

Going from Infiltration Adept to Combat Face Adept

Instead of reworking all the Karma costs,  I just "swapped" things of equal value, so it should be the same.

It takes you away from Stealth Insertion, but leaves you a few sneaky skills, and puts you squarely in the Face + Combat field.

Human
- Adept
- Skills: Automatics, Unarmed: Aikido
- Powers: Improved Reflexes, Hang Time

BOD 2      3
AGI 6         5
REA 3         4
STR 4         2
CHA 4      6
INT 5         4
LOG 5      2
WIL 2         5
EDG 2
MAG 6
830 --> 355 Karma left

Positive Qualities:
Acrobatic Defender   
Catlike                     
Double Jointed      Jack of All trades.
Mentor Spirit (Dog)   Dragonslayer / Peacemaker / Raven
Natural Athlete      1st Impression

Negative Qualities:
Addiction (moderate) (BTLs)
Dependant (demanding) (little sister)
355 --> 344 Karma left

Skills:
Assensing 1         
Automatics 4         Perception
Computer 3         Impersonation
Escape Artist 1
Etiquette 3
Free-Fall 3         Palming
Gymnastics 6         Automatics
Hardware 3 (Maglock)      Unarmed-Aikido
Locksmith 6 (Maglock)      Negotiation-Bargaining
Negotiation 2         Running
Palming 1         Disguise
Perception 3         Gymnastics
Pilot Ground Craft 1
Running 2 (Urban)      Leadership-Rally
Sneaking 6 (Urban)      Con-Fasttalk
Throwing Weapons 1      Arcana
Unarmed 2 (Aikido)      Sneaking (Urban)
344 --> 75 Karma left

Knowledge Skills:
Area Knowledge: Seattle 2
English N
Japanese 2
Security Design 3
Sprawl Life 3
75 --> 53 Karma left

Limits:
Physical 6    4
Mental 6     5
Social 6     8
Astral 6

Martial Arts:
Aikido + Counterstrike
53 --> 46 Karma left

Adept Powers:
Freefall 2 x 0,25         Motion Sense
Hang Time 1 x 0,25      
Improved Reflexes 3 = 3,50      
Improved Sense (Scent) (free)   No
Improved Sense (Touch) (free)   No
Light Body 2 x 0,25      Combat Sense-1
Nimble Fingers 0,25      Quickness Boost-1
Traceless Walk 1,00      YES, or if Free from Raven = Melanin Control + Authoritative Tone

Gear:
A lot, total price (including a low life style) is around 50.000 Nuyen... important:
Qi Focus 4 (Astral Perception)
Qi Focus 2 (Wall Running)      Heightened Concern (Concentration)
46 --> 8 Karma left

I think it will be a bit meaner in combat while filling a role that the team is lacking and give you something to do & shine at it.

[Marcus]

I agree with Herr B Face Focus Adept some decent combat would be solid. What method of generation did you guys use the first time?

I'd run Elf, Max Cha, some decent resources, a really nice suit, a nice car, Max negotiation, use clubs w/ a weapon focus stun baton, normal face adept tricks. Sounds like you will probably be a little combat light for this team, but keeping it simple with a Stun Baton's Electrical damage and Armor Pen and you should see some decent through put.

Should certainly have
Club (baton) 6 +2
Con (Fast talk) 6 +2
Negotiation (Contracts) 6 +2

Run 20 dice for body and armor.
Push your S-Limit to 10+

And freaking HUGE Rolodex of contacts. I'd recommend familiarizing yourself very closely with the uses and rules of contacts, and come up with a long list of them. Good contacts can really bring a face to life. 


As to your generation issue may I suggest Greater Characters should have Great Builds to match them.
 
Be a closer! Only drink cucumber water. Own a nice car but never drive it personally. Keep your stun baton up one sleeve and a loaded Cred stick up the other. Suit+Over Coat, haute couture only!  Have a taser dongle on your comm-link just in case! Have couple solid catch phrases or themed jokes. Schmooze always. Go to clubs as part of leg work. Talk about Politics! You are always one Commlink call away from the Solution to any problem.