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HMHVV Revamped and Streamlined

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MijRai

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« Reply #30 on: <01-11-16/0108:22> »
I don't think there's been any let-down in the case of HMHVV.  Sure, they don't grab you by the hair and rub your nose in 'THEY MUST EAT HUMANS TO LIVE' as much as some people want.  That shouldn't be necessary.  We're all adults (or old enough to comprehend), we can read the dietary requirement and Essence Drain/Loss and figure what they need to survive, especially when it is pointed out.  Most of us also know chewing on your neighbor is generally bad, mkay? 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Reaver

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« Reply #31 on: <01-11-16/0535:06> »
It's been said, but I will say it again:

"Fire cures all HMHVV problems"


The way I look at it is, it's simple survival. They EAT people to live. I am People. There-fore I am dinner. Thus, to stop being dinner, burn the infected to ash. Problem solved.


You and whine and cry and gnash your teeth with the rally cry of "The infected are people too!!" all you want, it doesn't change the fact that they have to EAT PEOPLE to live.

Yes, Ghouls do not actually have to go out and kill someone for their food... they can make deals with hospitals, or morgues, or ask people to leave them their bodies when they die so the Ghouls can make human cupcakes out them.... but have you actually done the math? To survive (the last I saw anyways,) a Ghoul must eat at least 1 pound of meta-human flesh a week.. Now that doesn't sound like much, especially considering the average person in North America eats 5 pounds of food each day... But, that is Human flesh we are talking about!

So to just survive, they need 52 pounds of human flesh a year.... to SURVIVE! Not be healthy, but survive... so that is the bare minamum they need.... lets examine that for a minute.

When butchering an animal for meat, there is a large loss in the procedure as you get rid of unwanted fluids and 'waste cuts', so much so in fact that for cattle, what starts off as a 1200 pound steer alive turns into about 750 pounds for butchering. (a loss of about 40%!) from there, if you want to butcher that carcass into trimmed boneless meat, that 750 carcass turns into about 500 pounds of meat....(about 40% of the original 1200 pound steer).

So a 200 pound man would yield about 80 pounds of meat.....or feed a single ghoul for a year.

So, for that single ghoul to live reasonably for a year, a single person has to die. Basically a 1 to 1 ratio.

Now, lets look at Vampires... these sad, sorry little fangs need essence to survive... you know, the very 'SOULS' of the people they feed off of. (if you believe that essence = soul....) and they lose essence at the rate of 1 a month even if they are not doing anything... "Vampish"... So to survive a year, a Vampire must consume the very souls of at LEAST  2 people. (12 months in a year. 6 essence per juice bag person...)

So a 2:1 ratio for the survival of "poor little innocent vampire", at least 2 people must die to save 1 vamp.


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I'll say it again.

Fire cures all HMHVV woes.

Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Novocrane

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« Reply #32 on: <01-11-16/0726:13> »
For all the whining and crying and gnashing of teeth from the 'kill all Infected monsters' brigade, there are a heck of a lot of people dead to other causes. Shadowrunners as an industry usually rack up a few kills per run, and that's just in keeping a quiet run quiet.

falar

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« Reply #33 on: <01-11-16/0931:08> »
Also, seriously, a ton of people die every day in Seattle in Shadowrun without a ghoul doing the killing. I find it quite plausible that a ghoul can survive off of dead bodies ... but don't take my word for it, let's do some math.

The death rate in the US right now is 8 people per 1000 per year. I'm willing to bet that it's higher in Sixth World Seattle, but let's just leave the numbers there. The Seattle metro area has a population of 3.6 million people today. I really have no idea what the difference to the Sixth World Seattle is... I'd guess that it's higher, but not by a ton.

Okay, so let's apply those numbers - 28,000 people die per year in SWSeattle, so about 75 people a day. Presuming an average poundage of meat gain of, let's say 50 pounds a person ... that means we get around 3750 pounds a day of human flesh potential. If a ghoul needs a pound of flesh a week to survive, that means that our SWSeattle can easily support 25,000 ghouls a year without the ghouls killing anyone.

These numbers were generous in some ways (lbs per corpse) and quite conservative in others (death rates), so I think it would about even out. Suffice to say, a well connected ghoul network of 5000 individuals could easily feed themselves in SWSeattle without resorting to killing.

Reaver

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« Reply #34 on: <01-11-16/1013:27> »
That assumes people are just fine with their lived ones being turned into ghoul chow....

Trust me, the majority wouldn't be.  Look at the opposition that comes from just asking if organs can be harvested to save lives! If people wigg out at the thought that 'Daddy' isn't whole if they take his kidney after his tragic death, they definately aren't going to let 'Daddy' be turned into ghoulburgers.


And hence why they are still fighting for rights, and some countries put bounties on them...

Until a food source, other than Grandma, can be found, ghouls will continue to be hunted.
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falar

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« Reply #35 on: <01-11-16/1102:41> »
That assumes people are just fine with their lived ones being turned into ghoul chow....
That's why I was conservative with my number of pounds. Rather than the stated 80 lbs, I went for 50 lbs average. If you adjust further downwards (let's say 20 lbs), you can still support 10,000 ghouls and a 2500-5000 ghoul population is trivial. Death rate is probably, conservatively, twice the current. I could see as high as three or five times the current in Seattle.

In my mind, providing a corpse to ghouls is actually a fiscal transaction. They give you a stipend per year for the right to an amount of your flesh after death. The stipend pays for 10 years or until you die, whichever comes first, after which they have unfettered rights to your corpse unless you buy them out.

I would guess most wageslaves would jump at that deal, especially with a 2000 nuyen per year stipend. That helps pay for a decent vacation. Or VR-cation.

MijRai

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« Reply #36 on: <01-11-16/1152:54> »
Yeah, if some group offered to pay a 2-5k nuyen payout to a Barrens resident if their body is 'donated' to the ghoul cafeteria after they're dead?  I could easily see it working.  This is the dystopic future full of poor people.  Giving them a payout like that would do wonders. 

Reaver, that is true; you are on the menu.  That still doesn't obviate their sentience and desire for rights and self-preservation in the setting.  The Infected Rights movement has a proper basis to exist, at the very least. 

I also agree with the fact that until a cure or vaccine or alternate food-source is discovered, they'll be persecuted or hunted in most regions (don't forget the Feral problem either).  I totally understand that.  My argument hasn't been me wholeheartedly waving the Infected Rights flag; mine is waving the 'Infected Rights Are Viable And Should Exist' flag, because by canon they do and the ramification/morals are right there.  I've just been stuck on one side of the argument because of folks going 'the only option is fire' when it really isn't.  It's totally a viable and valid character perspective, but not really accurate to an objective view from outside.

P.S.  You're totally overlooking the fact that a vampire could also just take 1 Essence each from 12 people to survive for a year without killing or overly hurting anyone.  People are crazy, and there's explicitly vampire groupies/fetishists who volunteer for that kind of thing.  I'm trying to remember where the numbers Patrick Goodman posted are, but he actually drew up the Infected numbers per million or so, it shows Strain I and Strain II are extremely rare.  There's plenty of crazy groupies compared to actual Infected. 

Also, they updated Dietary Requirement; it's about a pound a day now to survive as a ghoul, and there's that whole fresh/raw requirement as well, storage is difficult.  That said, a 200 pound person should actually provide about 140-150 pounds of meat, since bones are about 20% of your body-weight and offal/skin is edible to ghouls as well.  So almost every dead person a day can feed at least 80 ghouls, fomoraig, harvesters, loup-garou, or grendels and 20 gnawers. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Reaver

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« Reply #37 on: <01-11-16/1246:34> »
I would be highly surprised if you retained an 80%+ weight on a butchered human. I'm an exceedingly careful hunter, keeping parts of the animal most don't (I keep the heart, lungs, liver, kidneys. Most hunters don't) and after butchering I am lucky if I get 60% weight to food ratio...
Remember, its FLESH you need. That means muscle tissue. Fat is not tissue. In fact eating straight fat is a good way to make your self sick! Also, don't confuse marbling with fat... they are different as well...

Unless you have actually butchered an animal by hand, its hard to imagine just how much we don't/can't use. Some of it becomes toxic just from the processing (anything related to digestion you want to stay clear of.... fical matter can spread easily).

Mind you, I am not going out and butchering a person to find out :p


My only real question though is: 'where would ghouls get the money to pay people  for their bidies???'

Yes there are lots of people in the barrens who might be tempted by such an offer.... but how are the ghouls paying? They can't hold real jobs, they are hunted in many countries, and they are not exactly welcome in the workplace.... so where are THEY getting that extra 2 to 5k a year to pay for a body when they themselves live in the barrens?? If anything, thry are worse off then the SINless in the barrens. At least the SINless can actually look for a day job without worrying about getting shot for bounty money....


And I agree, there would and should be a 'Infected Rights ' group in SR. It is totally something that would spring up.
Heck we have right now:

Flat Earth Society
Freemen on the land associaton
Ancient Aliens Society


And those are just the crazy idiots I watched yesterday on You-Tube for a chuckle!


The only thing you can be sure of is: "If it is a Cause, it will have a supporter." (Note: this doesn't mean those supporters are intelligent...... kinda like all the college kids in the USA right now that want to BAN free speech...)
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Sendaz

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« Reply #38 on: <01-11-16/1322:03> »
I would be highly surprised if you retained an 80%+ weight on a butchered human. I'm an exceedingly careful hunter, keeping parts of the animal most don't (I keep the heart, lungs, liver, kidneys. Most hunters don't) and after butchering I am lucky if I get 60% weight to food ratio...
I figure ghouls are not overly fussy and all of the organs are fair game. 
It is a shame they can't have it cooked because liver is sooooo much better when fried IMO.
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Remember, its FLESH you need. That means muscle tissue. Fat is not tissue. In fact eating straight fat is a good way to make your self sick! Also, don't confuse marbling with fat... they are different as well...
Ghouls are still living organisms though and probably need some level of fat in their diet.  Granted you wouldn't just go snarfing a lot of it straight, but you can still chop it up and mix it with the rest for flavour. Indeed Suet (raw beef or mutton fat -including the hard fat found around the liver and kidneys is still a key component of haggis and similar dishes, so you are not losing all the fat.
Edit:
That said, we did mention here how a human skeleton would account for 12% -15% of body weight and fat does count for 12-17% on the average person which like you said a lot of that fat probably is not going on the menu.

As I mentioned before ironically the best meat is on the lean runner type with the lowest body fat that is also unfortunately the hardest ones to catch.  ;)

This also raises a good point.
We automatically assume that bones are out, because the requirement says flesh.  However would bone marrow count?
I mean it's not a lot, but hey some people like crab legs.   

Hmm.. note to self: possible market for bone crackers for the ghoul market.  Have Roddy see what kind of pressure we are talking about and can a manual device do it easily.


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Unless you have actually butchered an animal by hand, its hard to imagine just how much we don't/can't use. Some of it becomes toxic just from the processing (anything related to digestion you want to stay clear of.... fical matter can spread easily).
Yes and no.  We do have some idea as we did our share of hunting in earlier years, but having been abroad as well, I recognize Western hunters do not use as much of the kill as some hunters in other corners of the world.
Tripe (beef intestines) are often eaten and many cultures eat animal intestines.  Indeed the French still eat Andouille of which some varieties use the entire pig gastrointestinal system. 
Granted in the later case this is smoked, but it does not mean a dry cure could not be done that could fit a ghoul's requirement with a bit of culinary magic.

Plus like the requirement says, Flesh.  So they don't need to be skinning a dwarf (though I would insist on washing one) before eating, compared to where you wouldn't keep the hide on a cow or deer for consumption.

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Mind you, I am not going out and butchering a person to find out :p
Awwww..... *puts away the Knife and Scale set*


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My only real question though is: 'where would ghouls get the money to pay people  for their bidies???'

Yes there are lots of people in the barrens who might be tempted by such an offer.... but how are the ghouls paying? They can't hold real jobs, they are hunted in many countries, and they are not exactly welcome in the workplace.... so where are THEY getting that extra 2 to 5k a year to pay for a body when they themselves live in the barrens?? If anything, thry are worse off then the SINless in the barrens. At least the SINless can actually look for a day job without worrying about getting shot for bounty money....
That is a good point, though a smart ghoul might well offer their.... cleanup ..... services to the local criminal organizations and get some bodies/favours/gear that way.


Or a team up, I recall in another thread we were discussing a Wendigo using his abilities to hunt and drain bodies and letting his ghoul allies eat the remains, plus probably being unknowing scapegoats if anyone comes looking for the missing people.


« Last Edit: <01-11-16/1422:40> by Sendaz »
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JanessaVR

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« Reply #39 on: <01-11-16/1348:41> »
@Reaver:

You are just the type of player I wanted to share my house rules here with.  I hope they're of some use to you.

Honestly, what's next?  Rights for the Shedim, the Invae and the Horrors, while we're at it?
« Last Edit: <01-11-16/1408:23> by JanessaVR »
Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.

Sendaz

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« Reply #40 on: <01-11-16/1423:39> »
Too late... ;)

#HugAHorror
« Last Edit: <01-11-16/1430:25> by Sendaz »
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #41 on: <01-11-16/1425:05> »
Not to mention there are plenty of insect cults. Universal Brotherhood for all! *shudders*

falar

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« Reply #42 on: <01-11-16/1425:55> »
Honestly, what's next?  Rights for the Shedim, the Invae and the Horrors, while we're at it?
Or rights for Trolls and Orks, amirite?

JanessaVR

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« Reply #43 on: <01-11-16/1438:03> »
Or rights for Trolls and Orks, amirite?
Invalid comparison.  Neither Orks nor Trolls eat people (Humanis propaganda aside).  Every last one of the Invae see (meta)humanity as nothing more than hosts for their spawn, and the Shedim and the Horrors outright want to exterminate (meta)humanity as a whole.  But the Infected Rights crowd probably think they're misunderstood, cute, cuddly little bunnies who just need a hug (right before getting eaten, with a terribly shocked expression on their face).
« Last Edit: <01-11-16/1502:21> by JanessaVR »
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Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #44 on: <01-11-16/1455:34> »
Or rights for Trolls and Orks, amirite?
Invalid comparison.  Neither Orks nor Trolls eat people (Humanis propaganda aside).  Every last one of the Invae see (meta)humanity as nothing more than hosts for their spawn, and the Shedim and the Horrors outright want to exterminate (meta)humanity as a whole. 

That does still leave the Shedim in the 'doesn't eat people' category.

But the Infected Rights crowd probably think they're misunderstood, cute, cuddly little bunnies who just need a hug (right before getting eaten, with a terribly shocked expression on their face)..

No, we think they are dangerous sufferers of a disease which has severe mental and physical impairments. What if they suddenly found a cure for HMHVV, or a type of vat grown meat product that can be eaten by and sustain the infected without needing to feed on metahumans (alive or dead). Would you still want to kill them all?

Think back about how people with AIDS were treated back in the 80s and 90s and how those with mental disorders have been treated throughout history. The more you create an 'us vs them' dialog, the more you gear up for a war. I'd be willing to bet that most of the infected rights folks aren't advocating for them to be everywhere, just not to to be treated as animals rather then the sapient beings they are (outside of the ferals, who basically are animals at this point). Besides, I'm pretty sure it's be easier to find a cure or food substitute then to kill them all. Being a magical virus that can cross species mutate it'll probably be neigh-impossible to completely eliminate from the world.