NEWS

HMHVV Revamped and Streamlined

  • 192 Replies
  • 55770 Views

Sengir

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 506
« Reply #180 on: <10-05-16/0445:09> »
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/books-and-monographs/trafficking.pdf
http://www.soroptimist.org/trafficking/faq.html (feminist spin)
http://www.un.org/events/women/iwd/2007/factsfigures.shtml
https://www.stopthetraffik.org/the-scale-of-human-traffiking (human trafficing mostly)
http://www.ilo.org/global/about-the-ilo/newsroom/news/WCMS_182109/lang--en/index.htm (trafficing and slavery in all forms)

Now, the numbers in these documents fluctuate wildly with some listing 200k-1mil, others listing 700k to 4mil... with economic gains listed anywhere from $500 million all the way up to $400 billion.
...and also wildly confounding human smuggling, trafficking for any kind of involuntary labor, trafficking just for sexual slavery, underage prostitution (which is mostly homeless minors prostituting themselves) and so on and so forth, with a healthy dose of moral panic added on top. My absolute favorite is the claim that 133 sex trafficking arrests were made during the 2011 Super Bowl. That number, which has been repeated so often that it's got to be true, was made up by counting every vice arrest in a two-week period as "human trafficking". Not even just prostitution-related offenses, everybody arrested for pot became a human trafficker and that joint in his pocket a sex slave. And of course, those number go "upstream" into nation- and worldwide statistics, too.

TL;DR: The statistics are more Gish Gallop than evidence. All they prove is that involuntary and exploitative labor exists, and that the sex trade is no exception to that. Which nobody denies.
The rest is fanciful narrative about vast secret networks abducting helpless persons for their nefarious and perverted purposes, powerful enough to suppress any real evidence of their existence -- that should ring a bell somewhere, especially for role players.


The fact that this moral panic exists does however nicely illustrate my point: We consider these crimes to be so horrible that they've even become the subject or horror stories. A bit of statistic variance in the overall decreasing number of police killed in the line of duty is enough to start a conversation about a "war on cops". In Shadowrun, Bunraku is "so what", and murdering all kinds of security is what the eponymous operatives do for a living. It's a truly fragged-up world, especially in the circles PCs move in.


Quote
Ah, you are talking about petitio principii.
No, I am talking about the classic example of circular reasoning, which you minimally rephrased into "Elves, dwarves, trolls and Orks are Persons and People because The UN, the WHO (no, not the band!), and even the Catholic church says they are (admittedly for the church, only after a mass revolt of the faithful)."

Quote
Yes, actually it does. It proves that in 190X, there were no nuclear powerplants. And you are correct that it only shows what was know at the time of the writing;
In other words, the whole dictionary discussion is a useless sideshow: All of recorded history took place in a world where there are no sapients besides Homo Sapiens, the Sixth World has one or two more, including one who was eligible for President of the UCAS.

LordGrizzle

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 242
« Reply #181 on: <10-05-16/0454:49> »

And I general y don't go out of my way to hunt down infected either... But at the same time, I have ZERO qualms of opening up with a force 20 flamethrower spell if one so much as looks at me sideways....

I have a huge problem with AIs, no secret there.... But you survive the Renraku Incident, and see how much you trust a construct again. (especially when you are already leery of the Matrix)

BUT, that said, I am also a criminal that has a job to do, and if you get in the way of that job, I WILL take you down, and I don't care who/what you are.

And that's what I would never do. I only attack if they attacked me first. Maybe I am too kind to play a game like Shadowrun?

Well, I am too optimistic and tech-obsessed as to let any catastrophe hamper my enjoyment of technology (even if it will be my downfall someday, somewhere).

I agree with the last point. A job needs to be done. Altough I would never accept a job that requires murder from the get-go (maybe if the target is somebody evil beyond any doubt...? No not even then I think).

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6424
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #182 on: <10-05-16/0556:43> »
@Sengir

So, no evidence, no proof, no support to your argument..... just an emotive, passive agressive, touchy-feely rambling, not even phrased as in character (which I give props to Senko and Gizzle for!)


I'll just chalk this argument up so a 'win' then. :D
(Can't back up what you are saying with anything but 'feels', then you don't have a position worth discussing. At least Senko and Grizzle tried)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Senko

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2485
« Reply #183 on: <10-05-16/0602:08> »
And I'd love to continue the debate unfortunately I'm back at work for 11 day's so I leave at 4am and get back after 5pm so not much time to post especially with everything else I have to deal with right now.

Novocrane

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2225
« Reply #184 on: <10-05-16/0625:05> »
I find it kinda amusing that you're resorting to calling out both not replying in character and tarring Sengir's entire response as 'touchy feely', Reavs.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6424
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #185 on: <10-05-16/0627:15> »

And I general y don't go out of my way to hunt down infected either... But at the same time, I have ZERO qualms of opening up with a force 20 flamethrower spell if one so much as looks at me sideways....

I have a huge problem with AIs, no secret there.... But you survive the Renraku Incident, and see how much you trust a construct again. (especially when you are already leery of the Matrix)

BUT, that said, I am also a criminal that has a job to do, and if you get in the way of that job, I WILL take you down, and I don't care who/what you are.

And that's what I would never do. I only attack if they attacked me first. Maybe I am too kind to play a game like Shadowrun?

Well, I am too optimistic and tech-obsessed as to let any catastrophe hamper my enjoyment of technology (even if it will be my downfall someday, somewhere).

I agree with the last point. A job needs to be done. Altough I would never accept a job that requires murder from the get-go (maybe if the target is somebody evil beyond any doubt...? No not even then I think).

We are talking about a highly infectous disease that can be spread by a mere scratch.... damn straight I am turning that ghoul to ash the first hint of trouble!

I prefer investigative, blackmail, snatch, and recovery jobs my self. Those are my bread and butter.

But sometimes, other members of our crew get other jobs (when you've run the shadows as long as my crew <playing since 1e> all members end up getting offered jobs from contacts...) And sometimes those jobs are combat related. Not my favorite as the risk is usualky greater then the reward... but you have to watch the back of your team: else there is no one to watch yours!

And sometimes, despite the best laid plans, shit goes sideways....


And I have also learned, if you prove you are willing and have the stomach to do what others are not, you can actually avoid future problems.... if you don't let your morals get in the way.

Eventually, your team will mess up bad, and someone will send the goons after you. That's part of the job.

I have found that a very liberal application of extreme cruelty keeps these goons away....Fewer people are willing to come after you (or the fee they charge is too extreme) after you demonstrate that 'yes' there ARE fates worse then death, and you are not shy about delivering them.

An ampule of adrenaline, coagulate in spray form, and a cheese grater work well. Adrenaline keeps him awake. Coagulate to stop death from blood loss, cheese grater to remove all their skin. (Silence spell works wonders at keeping the screams unheard).

A pot of boiling water, and a control actions spell is also very effective.

its distasteful. But after you get a rep for dealing with reprisals with extreme violence, they stop.

Just be aware, you also make enemies. And even your rep for such actions isn't going to save you from a full on Corp backed blackbook assualt squad....

If you don't have the stomach to get knee deep in the gore every now and then, stick to softer side of the shadows. It pays less, but you sleep better without as heavy a conscience.... there's room in the shadows for all types.

Our old decker went 15 years without ever firing a single shot.... until the crash 2.0 took her down.



Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6424
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #186 on: <10-05-16/0640:07> »
I find it kinda amusing that you're resorting to calling out both not replying in character and tarring Sengir's entire response as 'touchy feely', Reavs.

He touched it off by asking for verification and support. I provided it. Pointed to where I got my sources and how I supported my opinion and conclusions.

If you are going to ask for that, then you repond in kind.

If you want an emotional debate, or in character debate fine too...

There are different rules there as well.

But DO NOT ask for evidence, proof and support, the come back with an emotive response. Its disingenous.

You'll note I have not ask Grizzle for proof, evidence or support of his stance because he has not used that approach, he's used an in character-emotive one, and I respond in kind.


2 different styles, and they don't mix.

You want a fact based argument, you support with facts. You want an emotive argument, you support with emotive.

But what you DON'T do is demand factual support, then respond with emotive.

Senko has done a fair job of trying to mix the two. (And considering I have them on ignore, yet still willing to praise his attempts should tell you something)


《And if I seem to be rambling, its due to me being up for 40hours straight with zero sleep. Sorry》
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Sengir

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 506
« Reply #187 on: <10-05-16/0745:09> »
@Sengir

So, no evidence, no proof, no support to your argument..... just an emotive, passive agressive, touchy-feely rambling, not even phrased as in character (which I give props to Senko and Gizzle for!)
Kinda cute when the guy who subscribes to pearl-clutching moral panics and urban legends from the last decade accuses others of "emotive, passive agressive, touchy-feely rambling" :D

As for the accusation itself, it seems I still wasn't blunt enough for you to understand, so let me try again: For a discussion on the merit of arguments, you would have to present an argument. Your circular reasoning is not an argument at all. It's like delivering a PC game that crashes on startup, and then complaining that the reviewer didn't focus on the graphics.

Overbyte

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 517
« Reply #188 on: <10-05-16/1555:32> »
What I do find interesting, is that this is mostly a Frist World phenomenon. Get into the developing world, and the concern for animals, animal well being drops well down. Only the rich have pets, for everyone else, an animal comes in 3 types, A service animal, a Production animal, or a food source.... and in many cases all three! Get down to the 3rd world, and animals basically come in two forms: Protection animals, and food sources... and that protection animal becomes a food source once it can no longer do its job.
They do not form the emotional attachments to animals that you see in the Western World. For example, when someone's dog dies in the western world, they are sad for weeks or even months. In the 3rd world, they are sad for about as long as it takes to prepare that dog for dinner. and once they eaten it, they go get an other dog to fill in for the one that died.

This is absolutely untrue. There are many places in the "third world" where animals are worshiped and/or revered. for example: cows in India. But that aside, they are still not "people".

On the other hand, I think a better example of the evolution of the terminology is in the US constitution where "all men are created equal" did not include women or black people at the time of writing. Over time the meaning changed to include them as attitudes changed. History is riddled with examples of not thinking other people were human for one reason or another. So I could definitely see it changing over time in the SR as people came to accept that a meta-human was "people", then a meta-human with a terrible disease (like HMHVV), then other sapiens like Naga.

Nothing is foolproof. Fools are so ingenious.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6424
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #189 on: <10-05-16/1936:35> »
Fair point Overbyte.

Yes there some cultures that do worship some animals and hold them so scared, they don't eat them. But those are few and far between (Hindi are the only ones I can think of... but there probably more)

Now, how fast is that vernacular change VS legal definition?

It hasn't happened since the awakening very often! So far, the only two species I know of that have been accepted the UN are dragons and sasquatch. And, admittedly some countries DO extend Human Rights to other species (like shifters in the NAN).

But when you look worldwide, this simply isn't the case for the majority of the planet. And I doubt VERY much ghouls are going to be accepted after countries have gone to great lengths to DE-classify them as metahumans. (Doesn't stop those miss-guided souls from trying to get their rights reinstated however.)



@Sengir:

STILL nothung other then emotive and personal attacks huh?

Reaver:2
Sengir:0
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Sengir

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 506
« Reply #190 on: <10-06-16/0536:30> »
This is absolutely untrue. There are many places in the "third world" where animals are worshiped and/or revered. for example: cows in India. But that aside, they are still not "people".
Furthermore, animals serving a double role as pets and food source is not limited to the "noble savages" Reaver is extolling while being forgotten by the degenerate West: The most common example being rabbits, then there are guinea pigs in the Americas, horses in Europe, dogs in Korea...


@Reaver:
Quote
Reaver:2
Sengir:0
You seem deeply shaken by having your beliefs questioned, so if that makes you feel better, be my guest :)

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6424
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #191 on: <10-06-16/0647:06> »
Between the Ex-wife and Bulldog....
hmmmm.... Save the Bulldog while waving goodbye as the Ex-wife dies! (Yes, I hate her THAT much)
True story.

Some local punks once kidnapped Reaver's Ex and sent him a text message from her phone saying pay up or we cut her into little pieces.

He sent back a message asking for hi res pics of the cutting up.

Then the punks sent another message saying pay up or they give her back.

Sadly before he could get the monies together,  the cops found them and brought her back.  :P

No.


I asked for high rez video. With sound.

anything THAT personally enjoyable I want to watch and hear repeatedly!

(I even offered to send them a spoon!)

Any chance you could send those guys after my ex? I can't pay them, but I can supply snacks...and pie!

What type of Pie??? And how much Pie??

I know several people who'd kill for some good pie! (Literally!)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Sendaz

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2220
  • Associate of Rywfol Emwolb Industries
« Reply #192 on: <10-06-16/0913:38> »
Between the Ex-wife and Bulldog....
hmmmm.... Save the Bulldog while waving goodbye as the Ex-wife dies! (Yes, I hate her THAT much)
True story.

Some local punks once kidnapped Reaver's Ex and sent him a text message from her phone saying pay up or we cut her into little pieces.

He sent back a message asking for hi res pics of the cutting up.

Then the punks sent another message saying pay up or they give her back.

Sadly before he could get the monies together,  the cops found them and brought her back.  :P

No.


I asked for high rez video. With sound.

anything THAT personally enjoyable I want to watch and hear repeatedly!

(I even offered to send them a spoon!)

Any chance you could send those guys after my ex? I can't pay them, but I can supply snacks...and pie!

What type of Pie??? And how much Pie??

I know several people who'd kill for some good pie! (Literally!)
The rates some of our local talent use:

Apple Pie = Make someone's knees bend the wrong way.

Blueberry Pie = Breaking all major limb joints, though leaving them intact enough for a few years of physical therapy or cyberreplacement to recover with.

Rhubarb Pie = All Problems All Gone.  8)
Do you believe in a greater WIRELESS, an Invisible(WiFi) All Seeing(detecting those connected- at least if within 100'), All Knowing(all online data) Presence that we can draw upon for Wisdom(downloads & updates), Strength (wifi boni) and Comfort (porn) or do you turn your back on it  (Go Offline)?