[gradivus]

I was just commenting on your justification comment...
I didn't comment on the higher DP being better comment because mechanically a higher DP is better.

[Marcus]

Better to actually have a good dice pool as a combat specialist than to rely on full-auto, which is basically a waste of ammunition. Not to mention that I just can't justify someone with a non-military background being trained in Automatics or for those with that background to not be trained in Pistols and Longarms as well.

Regardless, A4BG for the purposes of the game, there is nothing wrong with building around using burst or FA Fire. It's legit, preference will vary, builds will vary, but the option is there and it's valid systematically. Of course having a good die pool is better and having all the above is better still.

Gradivus, I don't think I'm following your point. Can you spell it out more clearly please.

[All4BigGuns]

Regardless, A4BG for the purposes of the game, there is nothing wrong with building around using burst or FA Fire. It's legit, preference will vary, builds will vary, but the option is there and it's valid systematically.

Actually, there is something wrong with it. Payouts, at a base, are low enough as-is considering how much upgrading implants costs, so wasting ammunition on full-auto is bad because it further slows saving enough for those upgrades.

[gradivus]

Better to actually have a good dice pool as a combat specialist than to rely on full-auto, which is basically a waste of ammunition. Not to mention that I just can't justify someone with a non-military background being trained in Automatics or for those with that background to not be trained in Pistols and Longarms as well.

Regardless, A4BG for the purposes of the game, there is nothing wrong with building around using burst or FA Fire. It's legit, preference will vary, builds will vary, but the option is there and it's valid systematically. Of course having a good die pool is better and having all the above is better still.

Gradivus, I don't think I'm following your point. Can you spell it out more clearly please.

Which comment...

[Marcus]

Regardless, A4BG for the purposes of the game, there is nothing wrong with building around using burst or FA Fire. It's legit, preference will vary, builds will vary, but the option is there and it's valid systematically.

Actually, there is something wrong with it. Payouts, at a base, are low enough as-is considering how much upgrading implants costs, so wasting ammunition on full-auto is bad because it further slows saving enough for those upgrades.

I agree it very inefficient, but that doesn't mean it won't work from the stand point of character building.

[Marcus]

Which comment...

I thought you were going somewhere with this line of discussion.

[All4BigGuns]

Regardless, A4BG for the purposes of the game, there is nothing wrong with building around using burst or FA Fire. It's legit, preference will vary, builds will vary, but the option is there and it's valid systematically.

Actually, there is something wrong with it. Payouts, at a base, are low enough as-is considering how much upgrading implants costs, so wasting ammunition on full-auto is bad because it further slows saving enough for those upgrades.

I agree it very inefficient, but that doesn't mean it won't work from the stand point of character building.

I just find it so very strange that the ones that tout Karma efficiency so much give people a suggestion that is so inefficient when it comes to being able to save up cash for upgrades once play starts. If one is going to talk efficiency, they should be going for it with both sides of that coin.

[Gatlack]

Regardless, A4BG for the purposes of the game, there is nothing wrong with building around using burst or FA Fire. It's legit, preference will vary, builds will vary, but the option is there and it's valid systematically.

Actually, there is something wrong with it. Payouts, at a base, are low enough as-is considering how much upgrading implants costs, so wasting ammunition on full-auto is bad because it further slows saving enough for those upgrades.

I agree it very inefficient, but that doesn't mean it won't work from the stand point of character building.

I just find it so very strange that the ones that tout Karma efficiency so much give people a suggestion that is so inefficient when it comes to being able to save up cash for upgrades once play starts. If one is going to talk efficiency, they should be going for it with both sides of that coin.

How low is your payout and how much fighting are you doing? Even when you are firing 3 whole clips from an Ares Alpha for 1 run, the ammunition costs (regular ammo) only add up to 132 Nuyen. At least nearly negligible in my books.

[Haywire]

IIRC, regular amno comes at 20 nuyen for 10 rounds. In a standard run, assuming every IP you fire 10 bullets, you should not be out more than a hundred nuyen (a single combat in a run, that lasts for 5 passes). Double that and you're out 200 nuyen. How is the difference from 4800 and 5000 hurting your advancement, if an implant can cost up to a HUNDRED GRAND?

Sure, there is a difference, but is laughable.

[Marcus]

Regardless, A4BG for the purposes of the game, there is nothing wrong with building around using burst or FA Fire. It's legit, preference will vary, builds will vary, but the option is there and it's valid systematically.

Actually, there is something wrong with it. Payouts, at a base, are low enough as-is considering how much upgrading implants costs, so wasting ammunition on full-auto is bad because it further slows saving enough for those upgrades.

I agree it very inefficient, but that doesn't mean it won't work from the stand point of character building.

I just find it so very strange that the ones that tout Karma efficiency so much give people a suggestion that is so inefficient when it comes to being able to save up cash for upgrades once play starts. If one is going to talk efficiency, they should be going for it with both sides of that coin.

I think you have me confused with someone else A4BG. The discussion as I see it, was what's valid in the system. Efficiency is a different layer in the model.

[Whiskeyjack]

If you're worried about the cost of ammo you'll never afford implant upgrades anyway. If your game is so Dark Heresy on costs that refilling your weapon is a serious budget concern you're either playing a very intentional street scum game or the GM is doing rewards very wrong.

[gradivus]

Is using full auto inefficient in terms of cash?
Probably so.

But If my opponent is not wounded, more often than not, I'm burst firing or FA. I want the guy to take as much damage as possible. That -2 or -5 (I rarely go 10 shot FA) makes it that more likely I down the opponent.

[Jayde Moon]

This thread has amused me all day, while I deal with traveling for work.

Thank you, community!

[ZombieAcePilot]

Skill matters for instruction. You must have a rating 4 in a skill to teach it. Also matters for multiple attacks, which you can only do skill/2 of.

Pool may be all that matters when rolling, but how you get there tells a story. An ex lone star officer may have 4 Agi and 4 pistols. He's not as fast as he used to be and his hands have a tiny tremor now, but he's been shooting for years. The punk kid he got saddles with thinks he is hotter than drek, but barely has a proper grip, let alone a good stance. He has 7 Agi and 1 pistols.

They both have a pool of 8, but gramps can teach the kid how to do it right, for gods sakes! Gramps can also make a multiple attack against two people, the kid can't.

If you have enough dice of various colors you might even roll different dice for attribute, skill, and gear. That way you can craft the narrative of the action around where the successes came from. Doesn't matter from a rules perspective, but is a cool way to differentiate characters with similar sized pools, but different ways of accomplishing them.

[Marcus]

Some interesting points there ZAP. Though I hope a guy with a pool of 8 will know better to to divide up 8 dice into two attacks.