[Rooks]

As long as we're doing pictures:



This guy optimized his Throwing (Knife) skill at the cost of everything else.  Best character ever.

And yet he misses 7/8 throws.....
(But does make the only that really matters)

he was saving his edge

[Strange]

And he had help from Egg's potion of increase agility.

[El Diablo]

Make the GM cry, make the other players cry! I play the way I want :v Powergaming rules! There's no way you can come to a forum and tell me 'm playing wrong.

Joke aside, there are lots of powergaming goals. Some are to create the best murderhobo and some are to create an unkillable bastard. It's true, 'm afraid of creating characters and let 'em die. I know they can fail, they can break and give up. I wish to complete a story, an adventure, even if it's a breakdown or a sad ending. That's why I have emergency plans in most of my PCs: call it Edge or Hero Point (SR and PF). I am a powergamer? Yeah, you can say that. I don't want to make an useless character that must be carried EVERY time. Do I roleplay? Absolutely. So, what's the problem? I do powergame. If the GM is having issues to deal with my PC, GM may always ask me to tone it down or change character (as long as it's justified). Being a GM is not easy and we meet in a somewhat social encounter to have fun, to play. Being nice is easy.

Take it easy, buddies.

[Finstersang]

While I´m generally sceptical about blatant powergaming, there are certain character concepts where it doesn´t work against a good roleplaying but instead ehances it: Specifically, when it´s not just the player who´s "powergaming", but also the character as well.

The Gunslinger Adept who´s striving to be the deadliest assassin to ever be alive. The transhuman Streetsam who tries to become more machine than human. The decker that would sell the soul of his firstborn for a better deck and headware. Many typical Shadowrunner Archetypes are "Powergamers" by design.

So no, building a superhuman character is not standing against good roleplaying, it can actually enhance it, even and especially when there are also more down-to-earth-generalists in the group.

That being said, there are certain red flags where a GM should intervene. One is, obviously, excessive cheesing. Second is excessive min-maxing (that often doesn´t even make the PC that much stronger, just more generic and inflexible). Third is that dangerous tipping point where the whole group gets into an optimizing craze because some Hardcore PGs are more or less shaming them into building their characters as efficient as possible. When a mage with an academic background doesn´t have Arcana as a skill solely because "ZOMFG ARCANA IS ONLY NEEDED FOR INITIATION PUT THE POINTS IN SUMMONING & BINDING OR GTFO", then things have gotten a little out of hand.     

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Powergaming is for chargen, when 1 point as a Skill going from 0 to 1 means 2 karma ... or going from 5 to 6 means 30.  And if the GM is using that methodology, well, IMO that's fine; that's what you get, and you can use that with newbies and the like.

After that, use the karma generation system; build strong characters with a specialty (close combat, decking, spellcasting) but who have real interests, can do some basic things despite stress, etc.  After character creation, spend your karma on things other than becoming ZOMG the best pistolero ever (which you won't, but have fun trying), because isn't it more fun to imagine your shadowrun team knocking down pins in a bowling alley once in a while - maybe part of a league!! - than it is always being at the same bar-cum-firing-range?  And yes, right now I AM imagining a Pistolero firing a silenced light pistol loaded with gel rounds from inside the bag he's reaching into in order to nudge the wobbling 7 pin down so the decker doesn't have to try for a 7-10 split. ...

... which is more fun than putting a splat on a paper target, isn't it?

[Marcus]

Oh hey Wyrm joined the party!

Now ya know the thread is for real.

[Talgrath]

I'm new to Shadowrun, but I sort of ran into this on the forums today.  I haven't GMed Shadowrun, but my experience in other games has lead me to this: it's all about who you play with.  Personally, I don't like "powergaming", if you want to call it that, I want characters with a range of stats and opinions, so I think it comes down to the GM laying down house rules to implement those ideas.  As always, just because the book says you can do it, doesn't mean the GM has to allow it.

[ZombieAcePilot]

Powergaming is for chargen, when 1 point as a Skill going from 0 to 1 means 2 karma ... or going from 5 to 6 means 30.  And if the GM is using that methodology, well, IMO that's fine; that's what you get, and you can use that with newbies and the like.

After that, use the karma generation system; build strong characters with a specialty (close combat, decking, spellcasting) but who have real interests, can do some basic things despite stress, etc.  After character creation, spend your karma on things other than becoming ZOMG the best pistolero ever (which you won't, but have fun trying), because isn't it more fun to imagine your shadowrun team knocking down pins in a bowling alley once in a while - maybe part of a league!! - than it is always being at the same bar-cum-firing-range?  And yes, right now I AM imagining a Pistolero firing a silenced light pistol loaded with gel rounds from inside the bag he's reaching into in order to nudge the wobbling 7 pin down so the decker doesn't have to try for a 7-10 split. ...

... which is more fun than putting a splat on a paper target, isn't it?

Either use karma gen or steal ideas from NWOD 2nd. Raising anything is a flat amount of points not based on the rank. Adjust the amount of karma you give out. Let's you keep the simpler priority rules, gets rid of the reason some people Powergame, and simplifies character growth. What could be more perfect for a group of newbies?

[Glyph]

Point build doesn't eliminate power-gaming, but it does get rid of front-loading-for-karma-efficiency powergaming, and makes generalists a bit more viable by giving them the low end of exponentially rising costs.  High dice pools are still desirable, though, because the game is still engineered around variable dice pools.

Still, one  thing to keep in mind is that the default game is designed to create superhumans who do dangerous things for a living.  Sometimes the complaints about powergaming seem like complaining that the PCs in a superhero game can fly or are bullet-proof.

[ZombieAcePilot]

Point build doesn't eliminate power-gaming, but it does get rid of front-loading-for-karma-efficiency powergaming, and makes generalists a bit more viable by giving them the low end of exponentially rising costs.  High dice pools are still desirable, though, because the game is still engineered around variable dice pools.

Still, one  thing to keep in mind is that the default game is designed to create superhumans who do dangerous things for a living.  Sometimes the complaints about powergaming seem like complaining that the PCs in a superhero game can fly or are bullet-proof.

Umm, didn't see that anywhere in the book. Trolls might be super human in some ways, but the humans are pretty human. Shadowrun isn't even competence porn. Compare the average runner crew after a run to the leverage team. The runners are probably shot to shit with someone passed out and they still have to go deal with a Johnson who might double cross them.

The leverage crew gets the corp to give them the McGuffin by tricking them and exposes them in front of a news crew as corrupt a-holes at the same time. When the hitter (street Sam of leverage) goes into a fight death is almost never even a possibility. The runners are constantly under mortal threat by contrast. They could be gunned down like dogs at any time.

So no, I don't think the runners are super human.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Leverage is a TV show; their leads don't ever KILL people, so of course death to a PC main character or primary supporting character isn't a real risk.  And the people and corporations they go after, compared to those in SR, are frickin' tree-hugging total pacifists.  Compared to your average Shadowrun, once they were made - and here's the thing, in Leverage they always get made - they would not have two or three guys going after Eliot with brass knuckles, they'd have a squad of 12 or 16 with suppressed SMGs and only if he's lucky and they want to question him would Eliot survive.  Leverage has the presumption that even the worst bullshitter on the team (Hardison - yes, Parker is better) is more believable than common frickin' sense.

'Superhuman' here is essentially defined as being 'more than human' - and if you have eyes that can see in the dark, or cyber that lets you hit right where you want with almost any normal shot, or magic that enables you to whistle up spirits and read a person's mind, you are superhuman.  Starting runners are more competent (R5-6 skills in their key abilities) than ordinary humans who do that thing for a living (3-4); they may not be superspies or military special operations, but after only a few months more of hard work (call it 10-12 runs), they may be.  After that, it's a question of 'among the best in the world'.

Does this mean that every character should be ultra-focused?  I don't think so; overlapping skill-sets is only to the good, and every PC should be able to do a few things relatively competently at a 3 or 4 - use a medkit (Biotech/First Aid), make a sale (Negotiation), show bloody proper courtesy (Etiquette), shoot a gun (some version of firearms), drive a getaway car (Car / Pilot Ground), use a computer (I ... don't even know what that is any more, but Data Search sort of stuff, not hacking).  Every character, however, has his area to shine - face, mage, rigger, decker, street sam - and in that area he should beat the others like a kid with a bunch of pots and pans.  That character should have gear (and implants) that helps the character do that thing incredibly well.

The problem - the 'power gaming' portion - comes in when your characters focus on 'their area' at the expense of the baselines.  When your rigger winds up going through all 1500 rounds in his drones' weapon mounts because he can't negotiate a simple gangland territory crossing, your street sam ignores his friends' bullet holes because he can't even use a medkit, or your mage has to surrender the entire team because he was so incompetent behind the wheel that he crashed into the gatepost on the way out of the compound.  Not everyone has to be instantly competent at all of those crossover skills mentioned above, but when your PCs are putting every last bit of karma and nuyen into 'their area' to the detriment of having any useful secondary/backup skill, then you have a problem.

And that's when you hit them with the 'the Vory guy will only negotiate with the Russian rigger' problem.  Make the difficulty their difficulty, and maybe they'll decide 'hey, spreading a few karma around to my other skills might be a good thing ...'

[Hobbes]

Powergaming is for chargen, when 1 point as a Skill going from 0 to 1 means 2 karma ... or going from 5 to 6 means 30.  And if the GM is using that methodology, well, IMO that's fine; that's what you get, and you can use that with newbies and the like.

After that, use the karma generation system; build strong characters with a specialty (close combat, decking, spellcasting) but who have real interests, can do some basic things despite stress, etc.  After character creation, spend your karma on things other than becoming ZOMG the best pistolero ever (which you won't, but have fun trying)

Yeah, the Karma math for Skill/Stat points at Chargen combined with (IMO) glacial character advancement encourages specialized builds even more at chargen.  But, that same math rewards diversification after chargen.

Narratively most runners remind me of people fresh out of school or the service.  Good 'nuff at these couple things, little underdeveloped "real world" skills.  But they quickly pick up the "real world" stuff.  Works for rookie runners too, fresh off the street (or fall from grace), shows some real talent but needs to learn the ropes kind of story. 

[Whiskeyjack]

Leverage is a TV show; their leads don't ever KILL people, so of course death to a PC main character or primary supporting character isn't a real risk.  And the people and corporations they go after, compared to those in SR, are frickin' tree-hugging total pacifists.  Compared to your average Shadowrun, once they were made - and here's the thing, in Leverage they always get made - they would not have two or three guys going after Eliot with brass knuckles, they'd have a squad of 12 or 16 with suppressed SMGs and only if he's lucky and they want to question him would Eliot survive.  Leverage has the presumption that even the worst bullshitter on the team (Hardison - yes, Parker is better) is more believable than common frickin' sense.

ALL OF THIS.

It's just not correct to draw parallels to a narrative show, where the overall trend is that it's unlikely that protagonist characters will ever actually be permanently killed (Game of Thrones excepted of course).

And that's when you hit them with the 'the Vory guy will only negotiate with the Russian rigger' problem.  Make the difficulty their difficulty, and maybe they'll decide 'hey, spreading a few karma around to my other skills might be a good thing ...'

That's when the face starts playing Cyrano de Bergerac from the van 

[Hobbes]

And that's when you hit them with the 'the Vory guy will only negotiate with the Russian rigger' problem.  Make the difficulty their difficulty, and maybe they'll decide 'hey, spreading a few karma around to my other skills might be a good thing ...'

That's when the face starts playing Cyrano de Bergerac from the van 

Or at least the rigger gets some RP moments makes the introduction and counts as an assisted test.  Stealing one PC's spotlight moment and forcing it on another is a bit heavy handed.  And 99% of the time results in fail because even if the Rigger had made a minor investment in Negotiations they'll get blown away in an opposed test. 

You don't need to beat PCs over the head with a weakness to get them to see the value of a minor investment in other skills.  Just give enough opportunity to move the story along or assist the main specialist, they'll play along.  And you can't expect each PC to be able to cover every skill. 

[ZombieAcePilot]

Leverage is a TV show; their leads don't ever KILL people, so of course death to a PC main character or primary supporting character isn't a real risk.

The characters are never at risk of being taken out. I use taken out in a FATE or Cortex+ interpretation. This means they are never really at risk of being removed from the story. They don't lose in a way where they don't come back. Sure, the stakes may be different, but that doesn't remove them from the category of competent bad-asses. Even with burning edge to survive death, the characters in a shadowrun game are not assured of the same. Runners feel like they are constantly running to stay on step ahead of a doom that is on their heels.

When I think superhuman I think of comic book super heroes. Powers or not, they are a cut above. Batman is not threatened by some punk with a gun. You need a villain to challenge him. In shadowrun a nameless goon can off you. Even spending edge to live doesn't really fix the disparity of power. I don't count the ability to see in the dark as some kind of miraculous super power. If I did than our modern military would be full of superhumans. Technological aids for guns already exist and they are nothing earth shattering either. A modern red dot sight is staggeringly good. Still not superhuman.

As for the magic... welcome to magerun. Its the aspect of the system I like the least by far. I don't disagree with the rest of what you say. My vision of shadowrun is perhaps darker. I like the fact that you don't need a super villain to challenge the players. The faceless, innumerable, grunts are enough to put the screws to a runner team. Sure, corp security might be taken down quickly, but their bullets are just as lethal and there are always more of them waiting to harry the runners. The question isn't if you will lose, but in how long. You race against that invisible timer, trying to get out before you are surrounded and out of options. You can't fight a stand up battle against a corp. You can't punch with the megas. So you suckerpunch them and try to get away clean before the behemoth can get up and crush you.