[Herr Brackhaus]

I think the AK-97/AK-98 is a perfect example. The only thing differentiating these is the Underbarrel Grenade Launcher. So if the AK-97 Targeting Autosoft doesn't work with the AK-98 weapon, then I'd say it's a safe bet that's because the AK-98 Targeting autosoft includes the necessary software to fire both the rifle and the grenade launcher.

This is all beside the point that playing a rigger is already ludicrously expensive by RAW, and yet some people want to raise that bar even higher...

In any case, like I said; GM/table call. RAW to my mind leans towards the "one weapon per autosoft", with "weapon" including attachments like grenade launchers, shotguns, and flamers.

[ScytheKnight]

In any case, like I said; GM/table call. RAW to my mind leans towards the "one weapon per autosoft", with "weapon" including attachments like grenade launchers, shotguns, and flamers.

I almost agree with this... with the qualification that the attachment is stock... n9thing after-market.

As for mounting a dual system weapon that's a whole other can of worms.

[Rooks]

AK you can have a case for buying two autosofts alpha since it's already smart gun installed you should be able to do it with one

[ZombieAcePilot]

I think the AK-97/AK-98 is a perfect example. The only thing differentiating these is the Underbarrel Grenade Launcher. So if the AK-97 Targeting Autosoft doesn't work with the AK-98 weapon, then I'd say it's a safe bet that's because the AK-98 Targeting autosoft includes the necessary software to fire both the rifle and the grenade launcher.

This is all beside the point that playing a rigger is already ludicrously expensive by RAW, and yet some people want to raise that bar even higher...

In any case, like I said; GM/table call. RAW to my mind leans towards the "one weapon per autosoft", with "weapon" including attachments like grenade launchers, shotguns, and flamers.

Many riggers focus way too much on have six billion about to be destroyed drones that they will order around without jumping into. Yup, they're gonna get wrecked. You take a big financial investment and then let a dog brain(or small child if you have one of those elite rating 6 pilots) run it. You don't need to be a rigger to do that. The good part of being a rigger is that it's insanely easy to get 20+ dice to a defense test and you run on matrix initiative.

Defend your investment rather than loosing ¥ every run.

[Rooks]

Or dont be a rigger unless its 4th or 3rd edition where they had half way decent rules

[Herr Brackhaus]

ScytheKnight
Good point, I'd agree with the stipulation that it'd have to be a stock weapon.

Which does bring up the question of how do you get a drone to use a modified weapon?

Honestly, at this point I'm considering houseruling autosofts to be generic so that riggers can just pick up an Targeting: Automatics autosoft if they want to. Simplifies the unnecessarily (in my opinion) complex drone-only skill issues, and does away with situations like this. If you wanted to use an Ares Alpha to it's full potential you'd have to get both an Automatics and a Heavy Weapons Autosoft, but this would also give you the ability to use any automatic or heavy weapon available.

*shrugs*

I honestly like that better.


ZombieAcePilot
Point of contention: a Rating 6 pilot is as intuitive and reactive as the very best of unmodified humans. I hardly think "a small child" is an apt analogy.

And second, how do you get 20+ dice on defense tests? These are not actions so you don't get RCC and hot-sim bonuses, which means you'd need a combined REA + INT of 14+ before full defense. Without full defense you're looking at 10 each for Reaction and Intuition just to get to 20.

Finally, by claiming that riggers shouldn't be running their drones on autopilot you are effectively removing a whole archetype. There are riggers who jump into their drones, and there are those who don't. Rigger 5.0 specifically describes both, and telling players that they shouldn't use autopilot to avoid losing money is, in my opinion, a terrible way of dealing with the inherent flaw of game balance where one poor dice roll for a drone rigger means thousands or even tens of thousands of nuyen gone forever.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; under the core (and Rigger 5.0) rules, I don't see riggers as being a viable archetype because they are too resource intensive for what they can do. Magicians and B&E types can more or fill the same roles on a team for much less risk of monetary loss if using the rules as written. And this is why my house rules for rigging is a couple pages long...

[ZombieAcePilot]

ZombieAcePilot
Point of contention: a Rating 6 pilot is as intuitive and reactive as the very best of unmodified humans. I hardly think "a small child" is an apt analogy.

And second, how do you get 20+ dice on defense tests? These are not actions so you don't get RCC and hot-sim bonuses, which means you'd need a combined REA + INT of 14+ before full defense. Without full defense you're looking at 10 each for Reaction and Intuition just to get to 20.

Finally, by claiming that riggers shouldn't be running their drones on autopilot you are effectively removing a whole archetype. There are riggers who jump into their drones, and there are those who don't. Rigger 5.0 specifically describes both, and telling players that they shouldn't use autopilot to avoid losing money is, in my opinion, a terrible way of dealing with the inherent flaw of game balance where one poor dice roll for a drone rigger means thousands or even tens of thousands of nuyen gone forever.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; under the core (and Rigger 5.0) rules, I don't see riggers as being a viable archetype because they are too resource intensive for what they can do. Magicians and B&E types can more or fill the same roles on a team for much less risk of monetary loss if using the rules as written. And this is why my house rules for rigging is a couple pages long...

The fluff talks about them in comparison to small children as far as their ability to learn etc. that's where I got that.

Let's say you max intuition at 6 and take reflexes at 5. We can easily augment that to 7 on reaction. That brings us to 13 all the time, 19 with full defense. Throw in wired 1 or restricted gear to up those reaction enhancers to break the 20 dice mark easily. Also could have an exceptional attribute or the like.

You should be top dog on initiative, and full defense lasts you the entire turn. Not to mention you could be taking cover, using environmental factors, etc to tilt it more in your favor. There is no reason you shouldn't be neigh untouchable, the proverbial leaf upon the wind.

As far as drones that will be involved in combat (i.e. Being shot at), you should rig them. If you have other drones being used in a less dangerous capacity they might be a good candidate for letting the pilot run.

I don't disagree the rigging is hard per raw, but I don't advise you hand your GM a 10 page document of house rules either. Learn to use them well as they exist instead of being angry that they don't work like you want them to. I don't like how direct damage spells work in this edition, so I don't take them for the most part. I don't advise my GM that he should change the rules immediately though.

[prionic6]

Let's say you max intuition at 6 and take reflexes at 5. We can easily augment that to 7 on reaction. That brings us to 13 all the time, 19 with full defense.

So you have INT 6, REA 5(7) and WIL 6? Nice!

[ZombieAcePilot]

Let's say you max intuition at 6 and take reflexes at 5. We can easily augment that to 7 on reaction. That brings us to 13 all the time, 19 with full defense.

So you have INT 6, REA 5(7) and WIL 6? Nice!

Vehicle full defense is based on Intuition.

[prionic6]

Vehicle full defense is based on Intuition.

True! I didn't know that. If anyone else want to look up the rule, it's on p. 205 under "Evasive Driving".

[Herr Brackhaus]

I don't disagree the rigging is hard per raw, but I don't advise you hand your GM a 10 page document of house rules either. Learn to use them well as they exist instead of being angry that they don't work like you want them to.

A. I'm not angry, I just don't like the direction the writers have taken drones and riggers in this edition, and
B. I am the GM

I don't agree that if the system is broken I should just "deal with it", so I'll change the system to my liking instead of dealing with "RAW". My table also doesn't play hyperspecialized characters to the point where player characters have 20+ defense dice pools so you and I just fundamentally disagree on some of these topics, and as a result I'll just call it a day where this thread is concerned.

[Rooks]

ScytheKnight
Good point, I'd agree with the stipulation that it'd have to be a stock weapon.

Which does bring up the question of how do you get a drone to use a modified weapon?

Honestly, at this point I'm considering houseruling autosofts to be generic so that riggers can just pick up an Targeting: Automatics autosoft if they want to. Simplifies the unnecessarily (in my opinion) complex drone-only skill issues, and does away with situations like this. If you wanted to use an Ares Alpha to it's full potential you'd have to get both an Automatics and a Heavy Weapons Autosoft, but this would also give you the ability to use any automatic or heavy weapon available.

*shrugs*

I honestly like that better.

I agree there should also be pilot ground craft auto softs or maybe pilot motorcycle pilot car pilot truck autosofts I mean really why split hairs so much? my RCC should be able to shoot any weapon and pilot any vehicle within a general class of guns/vehicles its not like googles self driving cars are model specific pretty sure you could run it on just about any vehicle

[ZombieAcePilot]

My table also doesn't play hyperspecialized characters to the point where player characters have 20+ defense dice pools so you and I just fundamentally disagree on some of these topics, and as a result I'll just call it a day where this thread is concerned.

Even if we pull it back to Reaction 4(6) and Intuition 5 we would still have 11 base defense and 16 will full defense. Those stats could exist on a decent Sam or Ganger. Toss on a rating 1 control rig and grab a decent comlink and you can begin rigging. A human with C resources and D Metatype could easily accomplish these numbers while leaving open A and B for attributes and skills. Grab a Car/Van and a few drones and you are a kick ass driver/combatant. Maybe just keep it to a car and rotodrone and get a good cyberarm so you can contribute even without rigging.

[ScytheKnight]

ScytheKnight
Good point, I'd agree with the stipulation that it'd have to be a stock weapon.

Which does bring up the question of how do you get a drone to use a modified weapon?

Ummm, you don't?