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Professional Rating and Dice Pools.

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MijRai

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« on: <02-10-16/0307:24> »
So, I sort of sent myself into a tangent over on the Current status and opinion thread due to a comment that wasn't directed at me anyways, so rather than throw a new plot-line there I copy-pasted it this way.  Basically, it has to do with expected dice pools, but starts with a breakdown of my problems of the Professional Rating (which has more options if used better). 

To start, I'm not a fan of the Professional Rating.  I mean, looking at them currently has their primary dice-pools sitting around...
PR 0- 6
PR 1- 8
PR 2- 8
PR 3- 7?  8 with gear.
PR 4- 11
PR 5- 16  18 with gear.
PR 6- 18  20 with gear.
There's one PR of ' sort of shit,'  three PRs of 'oh look, we're not shit,'  a PR of 'hey, we're the shit,' and finally two PRs of 'holy shit.'  On top of that, a lot of those dice-pools being at 8 only come from above-average Attributes, which makes little sense for the 'average' people. 

Were I to be running a game, I'd streamline the Professional Rating in a much quicker fashion, based on buying hits before equipment (so, divisible by 4).
PR 0- Defaulting below 4. These are your untrained mob of people who don't know what they're doing with their hands, or the guy who decides he's going to rewire his house after watching a ten-minute YouTube special.  No experience in what they're doing.
PR 1- 4 These are your people who just barely know what they're doing; fast food cooks, mall cops, the teenage lifeguard at the pool, that guy who somehow manages to pump gas for a living.  Hobbyists, people who can't do better, or introductory level, mostly.  Generally an Attribute of 2-3, Skill of 1-2. 
PR 2- 8 These are your average 'professionals.'  Your street cop, non-combat MOS, nurse or corporate office worker.  Graduated high school and starting their career or getting their advanced education level.  Generally an Attribute of 3-4, with Skill of 3-5 and/or a Specialization. 
PR 3- 12 These are your experienced professionals.  A doctor, detective, soldier ready for deployment, a Made-Man, a wage-mage.  Masters or Doctorate level in training or experience.  If you've got potential, you might get snatched up here.  Attribute of 4-5, maybe some 'ware on top of that.  Skill of 4-6, likely a Specialization somewhere.
PR 4- 16 These are your experts. A renowned cutthroat corp-shark, Red Samurai, that phenomenal elf musician whose songs are stuck in your head, an 'average' Olympic athlete.  Professionals with their degrees and active experience in their field, or a lot of experience to make up for the lack of tutelage.  This is the point where people will want to extract or acquire you.  Either extremely skilled or augmented somehow, with 5-6 Attribute. 
PR 5- 20 These are your elite of the elite.  Wildcats, Initiated mages with foci, very High Force Spirits, Olympic Troll Strongman Champion, the kind of doctors who can pull off cybermancy surgery without a hitch.  You may have already been extracted, or did the extracting.
PR 6- 24+ Why did you go and piss off a dragon? 

This is much easier to use, all in all.  Highest PR is the multiplier for your pay based on opposing dice pools.  You don't even 'need' to give them a sheet of stats, just roll the PR x 4 if you're winging it for some spur of the moment things or can't be bothered to waste the paper or don't have the time.  Apply it to social endeavors, combat, mental shenanigans, etc. if you don't mind tossing out some numbers for their Condition tracks and Limits.  If you've got a guy who is really good at something and acceptable at another, just note something like PR 4 Magic, PR 3 Face, PR 5 Medicine; you know they're rolling around 16 dice for if you start slinging spells at each other, or 12 dice if you only interact with them socially, or a whopping 20 if you're doing some kind of insane surgery showdown.  Or, for a more realistic example, your group has dismantled your expectations again and is trying to kidnap their Johnson for sending them to their deaths.  You really didn't think it'd come down to combat, so you never assigned him stats there.  Instead of figuring out his pool and giving him a combat skill, toss a PR- 2 on him to represent his somewhat faded skills from when he was active Corp-Sec and hand him some kind of pistol he could have on his person.  If you need the numbers to change a bit, add some gear with dice modifier, or just chuck some more or less dice into the mix. 

Now, why did I post this chart on how I'd do Professional Ratings?  It is a very good way of estimating a group's capabilities and judging where the characters are at.  It also explicitly spells out what each tier could be compared to.  My personal opinion puts your starting Shadowrunners around the PR- 3 (maybe 4 if they're a specialist) range for their primary area of expertise, with PR- 2 in a secondary area or two and PR- 1 in things you need to survive in life.  This makes them professionals with experience, better than the average in their field while able to compete with other professionals in certain situations or challenge an expert in an area they are not so familiar with. 

Also, unlike the original PR system this is a bit better for quickly comparing the capabilities of characters.  This is especially useful when players do their thing and go off on tangents like I did when I started writing this.  Need something easy for players to do, but there's a slim chance of messing up?  Throw in a PR that is a couple levels below theirs in the situation.  Need it to be close?  Use one of their level.  They're doing something that made you ask 'Are you sure you want to do this?'  Make it higher. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Lorebane24

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« Reply #1 on: <02-10-16/0321:36> »
I'd love to see an overhaul of the PR system.  Personally, I've just given up on using it as a D&D style challenge rating and starting interpreting it as a group's professionalism and tactical acumen.  Training (and the higher die pools that come along with it) are a part of it, but the custom grunts I create don't really have an enormous dearth of skill between their different PRs, I just have the higher rated ones use better tactics and teamwork.
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #2 on: <02-10-16/0350:18> »
Usually, I follow a very simple line for my opponents

PR 0: 4 dice (Ini 4+1d6) Soak: 8(6 Armor)
PR 1: 6 dice (Ini 6+1d6) Soak: 12(9 Armor)
PR 2: 8 dice (Ini 8+1d6) Soak: 16(12 Armor)
PR 3: 12 dice (Ini 12+2d6) Soak: 20(14 Armor)
PR 4: 14 dice (Ini 14+3d6) Soak: 26 (18 Armor)
PR 5: 16 dice (Ini 16+4d6) Soak: 32 (20 to 24 Armor)
PR 6: 18+ dice (Ini 18+5d6) Soak: 36+ (never mind)

Generally with +/-1 all around

The usual opposition hovers around PR 2 and 3, 4 and 5 being bosses and 6 being final bosses. 

Statting them individually just for the players to blow them away before they had a chance to act, has led me become very casual with my NPCs...
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Tecumseh

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« Reply #3 on: <02-12-16/1607:20> »
I like both approaches. I've also been bothered by the fact that PRs 1, 2, and 3 were largely identical.

I've been using a similar approach with Contacts so that I wouldn't have to stat them out individually.

Here's my own table, cooked up just now, if only to avoid not contributing anything to the conversation. I also provide Group Edge equal to Professional Rating.

DescriptionPR     Dice Pool     Avg. Init     Armor
Mob0480-6
Gangers17116-9
Rent-a-Cop210149-12
Cops3131712-15
SWAT4162015-18
Elite Corp Sec5192318-21
Special Forces     6222621-23

DeathStrobe

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« Reply #4 on: <02-12-16/1741:50> »
I had this conversation somewhere else on this forum, but I don't recall where right now.

I recall someone saying going with PR x 3, and I think that works really well, except at the low end, where it's too low. So what I think might work better is (PR x 3) + 2  for dice pools.

So a rating 0, a bunch of nobodies in a crowd are tossing 2 dice to attack. Since they're defaulting on the attack and take a -1 to their 3 agi.

While on the other end the special forces at rating 6, like Wild Cats or whatever are tossing 20 dice, which is pretty deadly.

I think I like Tecumseh having average Init also, this way as a GM I don't have to roll for that crap every time.

So Joe Average is rocking 3 int and 3 rea and gets 3 on his init roll. So gets 9 init on average. For a rating 0 or 1.

While Jane Tir Ghost is rocking 5 rea + 3 wired reflex + 3 reaction enhancer + 5 int and gets 3 x 4 average dice = 28 init on average.

28 - 9 = 19, 19/6=~3.1 init

Okay, Lets start with a base 9 for rating 0 and add 3 every rating over that.

Soak dice are going to be about the same. Rating 0 3 body + 6 armor cloths = 9 dice.

Rating 6, 6 body + 20 armor + 3 helm + 2 gel packs + 3 augmentation (bone lacing/armored cyberlimbs/whatever) = 34 soak dice

34 - 9 = 25, 25/6 = ~4.1, so we'll just add 4 soak to each PR

Damage is going to be a bit tricky.

Rating 0 guy is probably just going to try and punch you with his 2 dice. So that's 3 stun.

The rating 6 guy on the other hand is going to full auto you with a rifle packing APDS rounds. Lets say the Yamaha Raiden, 11P -6AP -6 dodge

So 1AP and -1 dodge for every PR and about 1.33~ for every PR

Oh yeah, dodge dice are going to be equal to init dice before rolling. Which doesn't help with this abstraction. 6 for Rating 0, and 16 for rating 6, so that'll be 1.666~ per PR. So something like this

PRDP for AttackDVDP for DodgeDP for SoakAvg. Init
023S699
154p 1AP -1dodge71312
285p 2AP -2dodge91715
3117p 3AP -3dodge112118
4148p 4AP -4dodge122521
51710p 5AP -5dodge132924
62011p 6AP -6dodge153327

The DV values will probably need to be fiddled with since there isn't a reliable way to cause those weird AP and -dodge values. But this aren't a bad rule of thumb.

Glyph

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« Reply #5 on: <02-13-16/1808:24> »
The trouble with a single dice pool for PR is that some skills are a lot more difficult to use (higher thresholds, opposed test, lots of potential negative modifiers), and conversely some skills are a lot easier to improve with gear, augmentations, or magic.  I think generic, slightly customizable sets of stats for various mooks would be better.  Dice pools are a good way to eyeball how challenging NPCs will be, though.

MijRai

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« Reply #6 on: <02-13-16/1858:21> »
Like I said in my original post though, in my system you apply PR to each 'thing' they do.  Your mechanic/auto-body profession could have Artisan PR 2 to represent his killer paint-jobs and cosmetic stuff and Mechanic PR 3 because he's good at fixing vehicles, or your doctor who takes Tai Chi courses to keep himself fit could have Medical PR 3 and Combat PR 1. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?