[farfromnice]

does anyone of you could explain to me why the Charisma of the Trolls get bumped from 5 (in the 4th) to 4 (in the 5th)

one of my friend love to play a Bear Shaman Troll but with the newest charisma stat of the Trolls it seems pointless to try

personnaly I love the idea of a Troll face but for the same reason, it seems pretty useless ... unless I'm playing with a GM who love to being con by his players

so toughts anyone ?

[Beta]

Back in 1st/2nd I think the limit for troll Charisma was also 4?  (I have a 2nd edition book at home, can check tonight), so possibly they were reverting  a change that had been made in fourth?

One thought for the bear shaman would be to go with the Sioux tradition, which feels not wildly different from the traditional shaman, but used intuition as the its drain stat (there the limit for trolls in 5th is 5).

[SmilinIrish]

Well, the trope is that Trolls are big, dumb combat beasts.  This is reflected in the fluff that they are poor, uneducated, and targets of mistrust and racism.  It is possible to bump the Cha with Exceptional Attribute.  But probably the best way to get a Troll with high social skills is an adept.  Building a Troll as anything but a combat monster is tricky, but its possible.  A Troll will never outface an optimized Elf, but an Elf will never go toe to toe in melee with an optimized Troll.

[FST_Gemstar]

Perhaps Fancy Derek can be a guideline?


http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=22985.msg423189#msg423189

[Shadowjack]

A Bear Shaman Troll is quite viable, it's just different than before. If your friend finds a certain character concept fun he should go ahead and try it, playing imperfect characters is a lot of fun. There are some options to work with too, such as Exceptional Attribute. The names escape me but Chrome Flesh has some upgrades that allow Trolls to get more charisma. I think you can have at least a 7 Charisma to start the game. Don't forget situational modifiers for social situations, being a massive troll can be handy in a negotiation too. Sure, you might not be as diplomatic as an elf but you are pretty damn intimidating and that migth net you some bonus dice.

[Whiskeyjack]

Because the authors felt like it, basically. That's what it boils down to.

A troll face would probably want to be an adept with Prototype Transhuman and inherent Tailored Pheromones 3. And good gear.

You could do it and playing against type can be fun but realize you're going to invest a lot of resources to do it well. 

[ScytheKnight]

A few things... first up Street Grimior and Shadow Spells have a bunch of Initiative based traditions.

Also, even if you do stick with typical shaman, Charisma is just used for drain dice. Keep your Willpower high and you'll still get good drain dice.

Don't fotget that there are various drugs that raise mental stats, Novacoke and Red Mencse?(?) Can help out with boosting Charisma.

Don't forget the Improved Attribute [Charisma] spell.

Finally, the big advantage of playing a troll is "Geek the mage!" Becomes a lot harder when the mage is armed and armored to the gills. 

[Whiskeyjack]

Yeah if your CHA is 4, the spell isn't so bad. Just casting at Force 4.

[MijRai]

There's also the Fomori metavariant of trolls with Charisma 5 base; if you don't mind the ludicrous dumps in OTHER Attributes as well (Logic AND Intuition down to 4 max, which is ludicrous since they also lowered Body and have a below-average Max Charisma anyways), you take Exceptional Attribute and you're as good as a Human or Dwarf Shaman. 

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Well, the trope is that Trolls are big, dumb combat beasts.  This is reflected in the fluff that they are poor, uneducated, and targets of mistrust and racism.  It is possible to bump the Cha with Exceptional Attribute.  But probably the best way to get a Troll with high social skills is an adept.  Building a Troll as anything but a combat monster is tricky, but its possible.  A Troll will never outface an optimized Elf, but an Elf will never go toe to toe in melee with an optimized Troll.

Actually the optimize elf could, if by melee you mean monowhip, with their agility maxed at 12, running wireless on, adept with weapon focus on the whip for at least +1 if not more.

[Whiskeyjack]

Well, the trope is that Trolls are big, dumb combat beasts.  This is reflected in the fluff that they are poor, uneducated, and targets of mistrust and racism.  It is possible to bump the Cha with Exceptional Attribute.  But probably the best way to get a Troll with high social skills is an adept.  Building a Troll as anything but a combat monster is tricky, but its possible.  A Troll will never outface an optimized Elf, but an Elf will never go toe to toe in melee with an optimized Troll.

Actually the optimize elf could, if by melee you mean monowhip, with their agility maxed at 12, running wireless on, adept with weapon focus on the whip for at least +1 if not more.

Yup, was thinking about this earlier.

Troll was much easier to fit in in 4th, honestly. You might have been a bit short, but as it stands in standard prio, troll casters are exceptionally hard to do. Troll sams can get by ok though, and will likely be Edge-monsters.

[Critias]

The Charisma range for Trolls is the same 1/4 it was in the last edition (20th Anniversary).  It wasn't just raised on a whim by "the writers" between editions, thanks.  And Troll Faces are plenty playable, and actually got more playable with a recent sourcebook (Chrome Flesh) which lets them increase their Charisma racial limit all the way back up to a 6, if they want.

[Whiskeyjack]

It wasn't just raised on a whim by "the writers" between editions, thanks.

ANY change in stuff between editions is ultimately ascribable to writer/developer preferences in fluff or mechanics, and probably attempts at balancing a new mechanical paradigm.

I'm not going to take responsibility for or feel bad if YOU chose to read, "the writers felt like it" as any kind of negative statement. It's simply a fact, like "why did ware costs change between editions," or "why did drain codes change" or "why does the matrix work a different way than it did in 4th" or even "why is standard chargen priority-based."

[Critias]

It wasn't just raised on a whim by "the writers" between editions, thanks.

ANY change in stuff between editions is ultimately ascribable to writer/developer preferences in fluff or mechanics, and probably attempts at balancing a new mechanical paradigm.

I'm not going to take responsibility for or feel bad if YOU chose to read, "the writers felt like it" as any kind of negative statement. It's simply a fact, like "why did ware costs change between editions," or "why did drain codes change" or "why does the matrix work a different way than it did in 4th" or even "why is standard chargen priority-based."

But...this wasn't a "change in stuff between editions."  That's what I'm saying.  This didn't change between editions.  It's the same as it was in SR4A, I can give you the page numbers if you'd like.  I'm not saying it's a negative statement, I'm saying it's an inaccurate one.  And when people make an inaccurate comment and ascribe either carelessness or malice to me and my coworkers -- while they're being wrong, and don't even know what they're complaining about -- yes, I'm going to speak up.  I've never told fans not to be unhappy with a product, and not to voice that complaint;  but when a complaint is inaccurate, I've also never shied back from saying so.  There's plenty to complain about, sure.  There's stuff I don't always like, myself.  But when you complain about the wrong thing, and pin it on the wrong people, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna speak up and correct stuff.

I'm not going to take responsibility for or feel bad if YOU chose to ignore literally everything else I said (pointing out that there was actually no negative change to the most recent edition's basic Troll racial maximum, and that in actuality Trolls can now have a higher Charisma than ever before in the history of the game, thanks to Chrome Flesh) in order to jump on one little comment.

[odd]

The Charisma range for Trolls is the same 1/4 it was in the last edition (20th Anniversary).  It wasn't just raised on a whim by "the writers" between editions, thanks.  And Troll Faces are plenty playable, and actually got more playable with a recent sourcebook (Chrome Flesh) which lets them increase their Charisma racial limit all the way back up to a 6, if they want.

I like this option, though the reduction always feels like selling out.  The troll lower limits are ruff cause they are my favorite race and they are only good at being strong (but not hitting) and taking bullets (cause they aren't good at dodging).