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Punching with magic: is there a good way to make an unarmed adept w/out 'ware?

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ProfessorCirno

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« on: <02-14-16/2055:47> »
So I did a sorta half-done thing to unarmed combat some time ago, and since then I've been trying to poke away at one of the more classic archtypes to Shadowrun: the kung fu adept.

And I don't think it can be satisfactorily done.

That isn't to say it's impossible.  Of course you can make an adept who can punch.  But can you make an adept who can punch, but who also has literally any reason at all to be such?  Can you increase unarmed effectiveness as an adept in ways you couldn't without 'ware or without using a sword?

And to be frank?  No.  No you cannot.

First, let's cover the problems with unarmed combat.  Then I'll look into the "benefits" and you'd better believe there are some gigantic sarcasm quotes there, because I'll be knocking over all of those benefits.

Problems
  • Attack as a Complex
- Melee attacks are all complex actions, yes?  Except, without smart planning and, to be frank, using a workaround that might not have been intended, it is in fact possible to attack as a simple - or free! - using melee weapons (for what it's worth, you use either the Iaijutsu martial art technique, or for adepts, the Quick Draw power).  This allows melee adepts to slam on Agility Boost before getting nice and bloody, while martial artists are bizarrely enough stuck sighing and taping the floor for their round.
  • Lower Damage
- Even the most basic weapon - your crappiest knife - does 1P.  Unarmed does 0S.  At it's most, it does 4P,  It has no reach.  It has very little to no armor piercing.
  • No Upgrades
- It feels cool to finally get your giant don't mess with me claymore.  It feels cool to break into the armory and lovingly lift up that assault cannon.  It feels cool to add that sweet new super strong focus to your collection.  But your punches?  Not so many upgrades to be found there.  This is sorta of a minor point, but it's still, well, a point.
  • Killing Hands Kinda Sucks
- This is one of the weirder things.  Like, yes, punches have potentially a much higher accuracy - but with no weapon foci, you're less likely to REACH that.  Consider that a weapon focus a) costs less then .5PP worth of karma to bind and b) gives you a boost to your attack pool on top of letting you attack spirits.  Killing Hands is just...puny, in comparison.
[/list]
"Benefits"
  • Cannot "lose" your weapon
- I will below go into why this is a garbage benefit that shouldn't actually be considered below.
  • This is a real short list isn't it?
  • Oh wait that adept power that makes your fists also do fire damage, except it doesn't actually add extra damage
  • and costs an action to know what nevermind

Why I think unarmed is made to be terrible, and I know some of this will be mentioned so lets get this out of the way now:

Largely, crappy punches mostly boil down to three main problems.  This is stuff that kinda hits the industry as a whole, but I'll mainly focus on how it hits Shadowrun.

1) "Realism."  The scorn I have for immersionist theory could fill several books, so I'll be brief.  The general theory I have heard is that "of course it's weak - you're just punching someone!"  Nevermind that it never fails to be bizarre that this is where the line is drawn for realism's sake in the world of dragons and magic - the fact is, adepts are already magic.  Like, they already have access to "a wizard did it!"  Why don't they have better magic-punches?

2) Overvaluing the inability to be disarmed.  When was the last time your character lost ALL their weapons - completely and utterly - and was immediately in a situation where they needed one of their specifically missing weapons to survive?  They lost their pistol and, what do you know, literally no guards here use a pistol.  Your swordswinger no longer has his sweet daikatana, and gosh, not a single soul to be found had a knife on them.  Thank goodness for Punch Dude.  How long ago was that?  And how often does it happen?  Because unless it's like 50% of your games, congratulations on making one archtype that the game constantly tells you is absolutely viable much weaker for the sake of a potential corner case that happens once in a blue moon.  And don't even try to talk to me about scanners, there's a plethora of ways to get guns through, and you can even buy KNIVES MADE OF RUBIES to slip through those.

3) "But then why use a weapon?"  The main failing to this point is simple: unarmed fighting IS a weapon.  Sure, in the dark ages of tabletop games (aka the 70's), when there was no such thing as fighting styles, and all you had was OD&D and a Fighter class that did 1d6 damage regardless of weapon, I guess?  But nowadays, few games come out where fighting is reduced to a single binary point of "what weapon do you use?"  Each fighting style is just that - a style.  Each weapon choice, broadly speaking, should be viable either or both for reasons of style, or because they all have advantages and/or disadvantages.  Which means unarmed needs to be considered more then just "the backup," given how many resources you have to pour into it just to make it a viable backup!

Why I'm focusing on adepts:

Because they're the only ones who need it.

Like, there's a lot of ways to make rad unarmed fighters.  I think spurs are pretty rad.  Having super dense bones and giant weirdo thick knuckles to punch dudes with is kinda rad.  BONE SPIKES are rad in an also kinda dumb 90's sorta way.  Like, there's a TON of different ways to increase your unarmed damage!

They just all cost essence.

It's just...weird that adepts have nothing.  Like, isn't that their entire schtick from when they first started?  They were the mystic hoodoo kung fu dudes who punch you with magic.

What makes this all the more irritating is how great it is in Shadowrun: Returns, especially the most recent one in Hong Kong.  Punch-adepts are rad.  You have adept-specific abilities just for punchin'.  Killing Hands adds damage and stacks with your punch-weapons (in fact, spiking killing hands can get you some of the best damage in the game!).  There's a unique weapon for punching that's just plain cool, so you have something to go with the top tier guns, super strong mage spells, awesome weapon foci, etc.  And the reason for all of this is that they stopped looking at unarmed fighting as "something to do when you lose your gear I guess" and instead looked at it as the legitimate character archtype that Shadowrun presents it as.

So to finish...well, what am I missing?  What's the cool adept punch ability that makes it totally worthwhile compared to other options?  Or is it just a bad secondary option that I should've never considered?  Should I just give up and make hybrids or full sammies for my punchmen?

PiXeL01

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« Reply #1 on: <02-14-16/2248:35> »
Have you looked into powers like Penetrating Punch, elemental strikes and Claws (I think) from Beast's way? I believe having claws increases reach.
Also get powers like Combat Sense to dodge your way through the hail of bullets you need to dodge to get to your targets. Nerve Strikes are pretty awesome too on paper at least.
If Tom Brady’s a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

Pap Renvela

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« Reply #2 on: <02-14-16/2338:02> »
Let's be frank- knucks is a weapon.
Knucks can be a weapon foci.
knucks use- wait- Unarmed.

Or skip STR altogether and be a shock glove boxing champ.
yeah, these can be foci too.

kicking technique gives you reach. you can even wear steel toed shoes if you want- can I have my timberland weapon foci boots- sure you can.

am I saying unarmed is better than a weapon-no, but it's not useless either and you can always take it with you- something you can't always do with a weapon.

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #3 on: <02-15-16/0021:37> »
Have you looked into powers like Penetrating Punch, elemental strikes and Claws (I think) from Beast's way? I believe having claws increases reach.
Also get powers like Combat Sense to dodge your way through the hail of bullets you need to dodge to get to your targets. Nerve Strikes are pretty awesome too on paper at least.

Penetrating is pretty dang expensive for what you get; -1 AP isn't a whole lot.  Claws are...really stupid.  Unless I misread it, it just gives you a bonus against spirits - and nothing else.  Unless you mean the claws you get from initiation, in which case...well, same problem with penetration.  Initiation costs a lot of karma, and in return, you get 1/2 magic in reach (so, most likely, +3 attack).  There's a lot of easier and cheaper ways to get that +3 attack.  Elemental Strike...whoooh boy.  Elemental Strike is more then useless.  It doesn't actually do anything for you; it probably looks cool, but a) you only get one element and you choose which when you gain the power (so no versatility), b) it doesn't actually effect your attack or damage, c) it costs a simple action to activate - which means you can't attack that turn - and finally d) your choice of element might actually INCREASE their soak if their armor is built to handle it!

So you're spending a simple action and removing your attack so that the enemy can more easily soak your punch with no actual benefit.

To this day I have no idea what Elemental Strike is meant to actually offer.

Nerve Strike's biggest issue is that it doesn't stack with anything.  That is to say, if you punch a dude with Nerve Strike and don't reduce their stat to 0 (remember, it only counts hits as damage), none of your partners can help you finish the job.  It sorta HAS to be a one-hit kill, which means you need to roll real high.

As for stuff like Combat Sense, that loops back around to my problem.  Why not use a katana with it?  Why use unarmed fighting?

am I saying unarmed is better than a weapon-no, but it's not useless either and you can always take it with you- something you can't always do with a weapon.

Dude...no offense, but read my post before commenting on it, please.  I pretty explicitly cover this.  Like, in detail.

ProfGast

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« Reply #4 on: <02-15-16/0041:12> »
I honestly think that Adept unarmed specialists suffered heavily from the Martial Sharkist Boxing Adept from 4e who stacked +1 DVs from here until tomorrow.  That's the only explanation that I can think of for the limitations they placed on Critical Strike, and the fact that in Martial Arts, there's only a couple maneuvers that grants DV and most of them involve taking a penalty of some sort.

That and, as you mentioned, nobody is quite sure what Elemental Strike/Elemental Body is actually supposed to do, since those powers are some of the biggest casualties to the early editing process.

Otherwise the only real benefit that unarmed adepts have over unarmed non-adepts is Immunity to Normal Weapons is bypassed by Killing Hands, so you can go around punching Spirits more often.  That's all I got.  And yes, as you mentioned, it's more worthwhile just to smite them with a weapon focus, but that's generally an adept/mage schtick over the mundane anyhow.

Pap Renvela

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« Reply #5 on: <02-15-16/0054:25> »
Have you looked into powers like Penetrating Punch, elemental strikes and Claws (I think) from Beast's way? I believe having claws increases reach.
Also get powers like Combat Sense to dodge your way through the hail of bullets you need to dodge to get to your targets. Nerve Strikes are pretty awesome too on paper at least.

Penetrating is pretty dang expensive for what you get; -1 AP isn't a whole lot.  Claws are...really stupid.  Unless I misread it, it just gives you a bonus against spirits - and nothing else.  Unless you mean the claws you get from initiation, in which case...well, same problem with penetration.  Initiation costs a lot of karma, and in return, you get 1/2 magic in reach (so, most likely, +3 attack).  There's a lot of easier and cheaper ways to get that +3 attack.  Elemental Strike...whoooh boy.  Elemental Strike is more then useless.  It doesn't actually do anything for you; it probably looks cool, but a) you only get one element and you choose which when you gain the power (so no versatility), b) it doesn't actually effect your attack or damage, c) it costs a simple action to activate - which means you can't attack that turn - and finally d) your choice of element might actually INCREASE their soak if their armor is built to handle it!

So you're spending a simple action and removing your attack so that the enemy can more easily soak your punch with no actual benefit.

To this day I have no idea what Elemental Strike is meant to actually offer.

Nerve Strike's biggest issue is that it doesn't stack with anything.  That is to say, if you punch a dude with Nerve Strike and don't reduce their stat to 0 (remember, it only counts hits as damage), none of your partners can help you finish the job.  It sorta HAS to be a one-hit kill, which means you need to roll real high.

As for stuff like Combat Sense, that loops back around to my problem.  Why not use a katana with it?  Why use unarmed fighting?

am I saying unarmed is better than a weapon-no, but it's not useless either and you can always take it with you- something you can't always do with a weapon.

Dude...no offense, but read my post before commenting on it, please.  I pretty explicitly cover this.  Like, in detail.

Dude, offense. But the one sentence you took out of my post is there to say that the three things I mentioned to help out unarmed doen't mean I think it's better than using a katana.

ZeldaBravo

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« Reply #6 on: <02-15-16/0327:41> »
If you're going for pure killing power then there are zero reasons to go unaugmented and unarmed.
Unarmed is for you if you:
- expect to be unarmed most of the time you operate;
- don't want to risk bringing weapons with you;
- want a solid backup melee skill.

Adepts are still mystic hoodoo kung fu dudes who punch you with magic. But there are also mundane transhuman wannabe dudes who punch you with SCIENCE.

Being an unarmed physical adept with no cyberware has more advantages than just "cannot be disarmed".
- You need less resources than a cyberdude. Adepts start at priority D but a street sam needs at least priority B cash to keep up with a fighty adept's speed and dicepools.
- You can really stay below radar. When you only have a credstick and a commlink and no guns you don't stick out like that guy with industrial-grade cyberclaws and electronic nerve system with a four-barreled shotgun. Or that other guy with a glowing* katana. Yes, the sapphire knives and holdout pistols exist but they are not 100% undetectable.
- You can be underestimated and overlooked -> surprise electric dropkicks are go.

You probably won't dish out the most damage but unarmed adepts are far from being useless. That's like saying that pistols and assault rifles are useless because assault cannons do more damage.
I don't want unarmed unaugmented adepts to do more damage than their armed or augmented counterparts because they invest less (skills and powers vs. skills, powers, money, karma a for bonded weapon focus).

*I know that weapon foci don't really glow.
*I have problems with clarifying my point in English, so sometimes I might sound stupid or rude.*

Rooks

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« Reply #7 on: <02-15-16/0347:30> »
Elf
Charisma 9

Improved reflexes 2 2.5
Killing hands .5
Nerve Strike 1
Astral Perception 1
Smashing Blow 1

Shocking gloves as weapon foci

Initiate

Magicians way

Master of the Nine Chakras

take a hit of jazz with wrist chem injector

???

Profit

Novocrane

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« Reply #8 on: <02-15-16/0415:01> »
Quote
Claws are...really stupid.  Unless I misread it, it just gives you a bonus against spirits - and nothing else.  Unless you mean the claws you get from initiation, in which case...well, same problem with penetration.  Initiation costs a lot of karma, and in return, you get 1/2 magic in reach (so, most likely, +3 attack)
Beast's Way Claws cost 2 karma (once you have Beast's Way) and give +1DV.

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #9 on: <02-15-16/0530:15> »
Quote
Claws are...really stupid.  Unless I misread it, it just gives you a bonus against spirits - and nothing else.  Unless you mean the claws you get from initiation, in which case...well, same problem with penetration.  Initiation costs a lot of karma, and in return, you get 1/2 magic in reach (so, most likely, +3 attack)
Beast's Way Claws cost 2 karma (once you have Beast's Way) and give +1DV.

I was wrong about the effects...but it's a metamagic.  It requires initiation.  In what universe does that only take 2 karma?  Spending a full initiation for +1DV is yet again kinda more proof that the adepts are idiots.  And like...I was wrong about the effects because the effects are actually LESS then I thought.

As for shock gloves, I suppose it could just be my GMs, but I find nonconductivity to be the most common armor mod.  ...And uh, why go adept, again?  It's the same sorta issue with the knucks - I've seen plenty of places rule against using those for stuff like Smashing Blow, and then why not just use a blade?

Basically, are any of these methods better then just spending a point of ESS to get 'ware?  Dense Bones are undetectable.  More undetectable then adepts in fact, due to the lack of magical aura.  My hope for SR5 was that the "hybrid" would no longer be objectively better then the regular adept.  Pre-SR4 you ABSOLUTELY wanted to avoid 'ware on your adept.  Why would I taint my soul with chrome when I got the magic right here in my hands?  SR4 was something of a dark age for adepts, where 'ware was cheap, efficient, and ubiquitous, making it the better option literally every time.  And for the most part they did succeed; if you're going with firearms, you can absolutely make an adept who's just as useful as a sammie. And for weapons usage, while adepts are different from sammies in what they're good at, they both have pretty solid niches.  And likewise, a sword-using sammie and an unarmed-fighting sammie are going to have a few differences between them regarding what they're good at, with both being good.

I'm just not seeing where adepts can do unarmed fight as good as someone with 'ware can - in spite of that having been the adept's "thing" in Shadowrun since they existed.  And I'm not seeing where adepts gain anything by going unarmed instead of putting their weapon foci in a sapphire dagger.

Novocrane

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« Reply #10 on: <02-15-16/0615:03> »
Quote
I was wrong about the effects...but it's a metamagic.
It's an Enhancement.

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #11 on: <02-15-16/0732:06> »
Quote
I was wrong about the effects...but it's a metamagic.
It's an Enhancement.

...Would you believe I not only never noticed it was an enhancement...but that enhancements existed in the first place?  I feel seriously dumb now.  Thank you for being patient with me, hahaha.

ProfGast

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« Reply #12 on: <02-15-16/1418:40> »
I'm actually with Cirno here, I didn't notice the whole Enhancements section by virtue of glossing over the initiation section.  color me surprised.  That said, what is the policy for Enhancements at Chargen?  I know Initiation is usually limited.

Glyph

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« Reply #13 on: <02-15-16/1503:33> »
I concur with ProfGast that a lot of it probably has to do with how powerful punching adepts could get in SR4 - up to +3 from critical strike, up to +3 from martial arts, and bioware like muscle augmentation and bone density augmentation stacked with it.  Unfortunately, like most good options from SR4, unarmed combat got over-nerfed in SR5.  Even worse, most of the nerfing was on the magical side (critical strike only has one level) and the martial arts side - augmented characters can still increase their strength and get bone lacing.

There is one un-nerf, though - Strength is no longer halved for computing damage.  Trolls are close combat kings again.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #14 on: <02-15-16/1612:50> »
There is one un-nerf, though - Strength is no longer halved for computing damage.  Trolls are close combat kings again.

Except that now you pretty much have to be a Troll to do decent unarmed damage, but if you play a Troll, you're hosed in several different areas in Priority, and it's prohibitively expensive in karma generation.
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