[celondon]

One thing that Unarmed has going for it that no other weapon does -- the Limit for Unarmed is your Physical Limit. If your PL is 13, you can generate 13 hits. Compare that to a Claymore with ACC 5. So, yeah, it's an edge case and it requires immense investment for it to really turn into a benefit, but it is there.

[Finstersang]

Using the Physical Limit can make a huge difference. You can also grapple, choke, and (with the right M.A.-techniques) throw your oponnent, which is also the biggest advantage unarmed combat has to offer in RL*.

For a "pure" Adept, there´s also Nerve Strike plus the "unarmed weapons" like Hardliner Gloves, Plasteel Cap Boots, etc. For some exotic character options you can also use a variety of natural weapons, and if you bring some augmentations into the mix, you can even surpass most other melee weapons.  Honestly, I never thought of unarmed combat as being the weak option. I think the melee skill that got the short of the stick is, well, sticks. Clubs are a lot less powefull and a lot less precise than bladed weapons, while still not offering the bonus of being available almost in all situations.

*especially Choking, which arguably could/should be stronger than it is in the RAW, at least when used by a trained martial Artist. But that´s another thing.

[Hobbes]

Adepts can stack a crazy amount of dice if they try.  +2 from Shark Totem, +3 from Improved Ability, + Agility Boost, + Weapon Foci (shock gloves, knucks, whatever), ect, ect.   

You can increase DV from Critical Strike power, using the called shot rules, and/or the mentioned Shock Gloves, Knucks, or the assorted Metahuman options to bump Str.   

Yes, you're still short DV compared to an Orc with Bone and Str augments, but you've got more dice.  And if you're in a long campaign, Magic "beats" Augments.  And most physical Adepts have a Magic priority B compared to a Samurai's A in Resources so the Adept character picks up something, somewhere, usually mental stats.

I would argue that DV 13 with 17 Dice, vs. DV 10 with 21 Dice are close 'nuff in effectiveness.  (Numbers are pulled from memory of theorycrafted builds, I'm willing to be off a bit).

[All4BigGuns]

Adepts can stack a crazy amount of dice if they try.  +2 from Shark Totem, +3 from Improved Ability, + Agility Boost, + Weapon Foci (shock gloves, knucks, whatever), ect, ect.

Except the commonly held belief on these forums would be that the Critical Strike power 'magically' (ironic, ain't it?) stops working when you put on a set of brass knuckles, focus or not.

Yes, you're still short DV compared to an Orc with Bone and Str augments, but you've got more dice.  And if you're in a long campaign, Magic "beats" Augments.

Even the Ork Adept is short on damage compared to the Ork Sam on unarmed.

In order for the Magic to "beat" Augmented as things stand, the game will have to last longer than most likely will.

[Tarislar]

Or skip STR altogether and be a shock glove boxing champ.
yeah, these can be foci too.

- can I have my timberland weapon foci boots- sure you can.

I'd question both of those actually.
I can see a lot of argument going to how neither of them fits the criteria for a Weapon Focus.
Has there been canon examples of either so far?

[ProfessorCirno]

Yes, you're still short DV compared to an Orc with Bone and Str augments, but you've got more dice.  And if you're in a long campaign, Magic "beats" Augments.  And most physical Adepts have a Magic priority B compared to a Samurai's A in Resources so the Adept character picks up something, somewhere, usually mental stats.

I would argue that DV 13 with 17 Dice, vs. DV 10 with 21 Dice are close 'nuff in effectiveness.  (Numbers are pulled from memory of theorycrafted builds, I'm willing to be off a bit).

I actually see far more Resources B sammies then A.  You can get enough bang for your buck with Resources B.  Resources A tends to only happens when they're going F U L L   C Y B E R B O D Y.

As for magic beating it in the long run...well, does it beat going hybrid?  I guess what I'm broadly asking is: is there a point where unarmed adepts are better served by NOT going for bone density + striking calluses?

EDIT: Not to belabor the point, but it takes four PP to raise strength by 4...or a single point of ESS/Magic to load yourself up with muscle bioware.

[Hobbes]

Yes, you're still short DV compared to an Orc with Bone and Str augments, but you've got more dice.  And if you're in a long campaign, Magic "beats" Augments.

Even the Ork Adept is short on damage compared to the Ork Sam on unarmed.

In order for the Magic to "beat" Augmented as things stand, the game will have to last longer than most likely will.

Samurai: Bone Augments +3 and Biobumpy bits for +1, plus cheaper Str augments.  Feel free to correct me if I missed something.
Adept: Knucks and Crit strike for a +2.  (take Crit strike Knucks if your GM insists)

4 Extra dice, Shark Totem and 3 Dice Improved Ability for the Adept, Reflex Recorder for the Sami.  Net 4 Dice. 

Adepts are behind by 2 DV and whatever additional Str the Sami can stack and are up by 4 plus whatever weapon focus dice.  Called Shot Vitals means +4 Dice = +2 DV.  It's cheaper Str Augmentation vs Weapon Focus Dice and the assorted clever tricks with Nerve Strike and whatever.  That is about as even as it gets in Game design. 

I've only fiddled a bit with Unarmed combat as punching things is really resource intensive for the payout.  But Magic vs Augments seems pretty close.

[ProfessorCirno]

Hobbes - don't forget muscle toner.  Boost Agility costs a Simple, which means no attacking that turn.

[Marcus]

With an adept you can push unarmed to crazy levels of both pool and accuracy. With the addition of a single spells you can make an adept that's just as capable or potentially more effect then their tech counterparts.

Until errata drops, Mana blade is the strongest thing currently, but no gm in their right mind will let it in as written.

Straight magic Unarmed is totally viable, and there are plenty of options and variant, pick your preferred Martial Arts idiom and go to town. 

As ZB pointed out, Yes adding transhuman, is going to make any unarmed adept build stronger. But does that mean you need it to be effective? Of course not, Pap Ren pretty much nailed it in his first post.

[ZeldaBravo]

Boost Agility costs a Simple, which means no attacking that turn.

You need to get close anyway.

[ZeldaBravo]

Until errata drops, Mana blade is the strongest thing currently, but no gm in their right mind will let it in as written.

Death touch has F-6 drain code. Just about anyone can overcast it all day every day and suffer no drain at all. Add a fetish and we have a F10 direct combat spell for 2 drain and yet it is somehow not as strong as a manablade? Even a Manabolt spell has a better DV than Manablade.

[Pap Renvela]

Or skip STR altogether and be a shock glove boxing champ.
yeah, these can be foci too.

- can I have my timberland weapon foci boots- sure you can.

I'd question both of those actually.
I can see a lot of argument going to how neither of them fits the criteria for a Weapon Focus.
Has there been canon examples of either so far?

Wow, just wow.

CRB p320 A weapon focus always has, unsurprisingly, the form of a melee weapon. It adds magical power to the melee attacks you make with it. When used in physical combat, it gives you its Force as a dice pool bonus on your melee Attack Test. You still rely on your Physical Attributes and skills in combat; the weapon focus merely makes you more effective.

CRB p423 Melee weapon chart, last line:
Shock gloves Physical — 8S(e) –5 6R 550¥

Hard Targets p179 under weapons:
PLASTEEL TOE BOOTS
ACC DV AP REACH AVAIL COST
[Phys] (Str+1)P — — 2 200¥


Since shock gloves and plasteel toe boots are melee weapons they can be foci since weapon foci are unsurprisingly melee weapons.

You can even take a pistol melee harden it or not as you please, make it into a weapon foci because guess what, you can use it as an improvised MELEE weapon (clubs in this case).

[Hobbes]

Hobbes - don't forget muscle toner.  Boost Agility costs a Simple, which means no attacking that turn.

Muscle Toner is one of the cheaper Str augment options I mentioned.  See also Muscle Replacement or Cyberlimbs.  Cheaper is relative.  1 PP for +1 Str is flat out the most expensive Str boost available IMO so every other option is "Cheaper"

Boost Agility lasts several turns, drain is trivial to manage, I've never had a problem keeping it running, and there are an assortment of martial art or quickdraw options for making melee attacks when you don't have a complex action.  YMMV, but it's only really a problem if your GM wants it to be.

And yes, hybrid is the best.  Every min/maxer knows, more options = Better.  If you can fit in some Augments on your Physical Adept you can make an even better Physical Adept.  I thought the OP was Magic vs Augments, if you want to do Magic vs Augments vs Both, then Both "wins".  For an odd definition of Winning anyway. 

[Whiskeyjack]

I actually see far more Resources B sammies then A.  You can get enough bang for your buck with Resources B.  Resources A tends to only happens when they're going F U L L   C Y B E R B O D Y.

Eh, I mostly see Resources A, because always cram more ware in 

[Hobbes]

I actually see far more Resources B sammies then A.  You can get enough bang for your buck with Resources B.  Resources A tends to only happens when they're going F U L L   C Y B E R B O D Y.

That is very different than my experience with Samurai builds.  You can certainly get a lot of milage out of Resources B, but if you're going for Wired Reflexes and the assorted Agility and Str mods you're going to run short somewhere.  Wired 2, Used Reaction 3, Muscle Aug and Muscle Toner?  You're not getting that for Resources B.