[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Uh ... okay.  In my experience, it's the pink trenchcoaters who are going ultra-optimized, but that's not really the discussion at hand ...

[ProfessorCirno]

"You can houserule away the problems" does not mean the problems don't exist.  If anything they reaffirm their existence.

Also, Shadowrun is literally built around the idea that melee is in-setting equal to guns for certain characters, so getting all snide about that is pointless.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Snide?  No.

I agree that magical punching has been downplayed in 5e; a weapon focus knife'll do you better every time.  While 5e has some (a lot of) things I really like (skills, groups, limits), my preferred edition in general is 3e, when a properly-built adept could tap you on the chest, walk away, and six seconds later you'd fall over with a burst heart, because Deadly-level damage was, well, Deadly-level damage.  But the problem of 'How do I get to you so I can punch you before you shoot me' has been there since I picked up my 1e SR book six months after the game came out.  The answer lies in a) the GM setting up a scenario where Punchmeister can start out that close to Gunbunny, and/or b) the player of Punchmeister figuring out how to get that close before the combat starting gun goes off, so he can silence said starting gun before it can be fired.

I've recently run into this 'you can houserule otherwise' crap over on the Paizo boards, and it boils down to this: Rule #0 is Rule #0 in every game, game balance is - and has always been - something of an illusion, and each game requires the GM's touch; that's part of the art of being a GM.  It's not houseruling the problem away; saying that is snide.  It is noting 'the problem' for what it is, and just going ahead and handling it.  Houseruling means changing rules, making new rules; in Pathfinder, in Shadowrun, in ANY gaming system that isn't usually required.  Interpreting rules for each independent situation is what's required.  That's called being a GM.  Setting up a scenario in order to throw the spotlight on each seperate character is what's required.  That's also called being a GM.

It ain't snideness; it's the GM doing their job.  Is shooting magic-power-hands kung-fu-guy six times before he can get to you a problem?  Yeah, kind of - but both the GM and magic-power-hands kung-fu-guy need to think of how he's going to get there before he can be shot six times.  That's part and parcel of playing.

Do I agree with Punchmeister's mystic karate strike sucking in comparison to a simple HP bullet?  Oh hell yeah, it sucks.  There are situations where it's better (mystic karate strike is gonna damage spirits, while the HP ain't probably gonna do crap) but against standard opponents, yeah, it sucks.  I don't disagree.

I DO disagree that 'SR is literally built around the idea that melee is in-setting equal to guns for certain characters', though - because again, that is a RPed thing.  A guy with a gun facing a guy with a blade is going to kill Punchinator dead, if Punchinator can't close the distance; when Punchinator gets there, hey, he shouldn't punch him, he should disarm Gunbunny instead of letting him keep his damn gun.  Even then, there ARE rules for 'close quarters defense against firearms' now, y'know?  But what SR is built around is the samurai/gunslinger ideal - and that is usually not being played.

It means that there is a certain amount of cinematic sense to the SR world.  If Punchinator steps around a corner he shouldn't've been behind, and Red Samurai is patrolling that hall, Red Samurai raises his SMG - and then Punchinator lifts his fists, and gives the classic Bruce Lee 'come on' gesture.  At that point Red Samurai puts his SMG on safe, slings it, and draws his blade to meet Punchinator in honorable hand-to-hand combat.  It doesn't mean that Punchinator (or his player!) should expect the situation to automatically, without the RP of 'let us fight like civilized men', to be able to run thirty-five meters and over and bitch-slap Red Samurai senseless just because it's a combat situation.

Game Balance is about 'Team vs. Opposition', not 'particular skillset vs. other particular skillset'.  It never has been, not in any game system more advanced than Tunnels & Trolls or Bunnies & Burrows.  There is always a 'more advantageous build' for any given situation.  The fist-fighter's advantage is a) lack of a need for any weapon but himself, and therefore b) the ability to be a lethal fraggin' weapon while blending into the business meeting.  If you're going to put everything, absolutely EVERYTHING, into enabling yourself to punch harder at the cost of being able to get to your opponent by diplomacy or stealth, then you deserve every sucky thing you are about to receive.  Specialists in Shadowrun last only so long, and every character who specializes at the expense of every single other thing are nothing but meat for the beast.

So "Talk to your GM" is about the style of your particular table/game and character builds, not about house rules.  So ... don't be snide yourself.

[ProfessorCirno]

Cool.  For the record I actually did read all that.

Punching sucks even for devouted punchmen.  That's the problem.  The problem is not "how do they reach their target?"  That's not actually a problem; mobility is fine.  The problem is offensive capability.  In fact, really, the problem is that punching is bad in a game where punching should be good.  Shadowrun fluff - hell, the fluff in the books with the rules - talks up adepts not even needing weapons, "their whole body IS a weapon!" and whatnot.  And it's not expressed in the rules.  It's like if the game had no rules for decking.  You wouldn't say "well, you can houesrule it in, and I think you'll find that it makes sense for the GM to decide on this matter and furthermore" - you'd call the game incomplete.  Because it would be!

Rule 0 is no excuse for rules 1-∞ to be garbage.  Bad rules are bad rules, period.  And to be frank the idea of "I'll buy this product and then fix all the problems because that's MY job and really it's sorta my fault too" is insulting - not to me, to you.  Have some self esteem.

[ZeldaBravo]

Dear ⑨, your statement is wrong because it starts from the premise "unaugmented adepts MUST be best at punching", which is also wrong.
In 5e, 'Everything has a price'. If you want to do X better then you need more investment.
Unaugmented punch adepts are still very capable of one hit K.O.-ing a person and kicking down not very thick walls.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Please stop insulting me.  I was neither snide, and my self-esteem is doing just fine.

I guess we're reading different rules.  It sounds like you believe an adept should be able to punch through an engine block (or whatever).  Yes, in fact I DO think that the base damage value of (STR)P kind of sucks.  That said, the normally-4-STR adept wtih Attribute Boost (Strength) 4 (1 PP), Critical Strike (Unarmed) (0.5 PP) and Magic 6 can have a base of heavy-pistol-level damage (8P) for 6 Turns with a standard-3-success roll on 10 dice, and he isn't maxed out on the strength he can reach - he's still got another 2 points of flexibility there, which means he can be doing the equivalent of a heavy pistol with flechette rounds - better, because he doesn't take the +5 AP penalty.  And if he's got Penetrating strike (-1 per 0.25 PP), it's even better.  And despite it saying 'Killing Hands', it means 'even the back of your head does Physical damage if you want'.  (Might not work with Elemental Strike and the like, but that depends on your GM.)  So yeah - for 1.5 PP, the Puncherator seems to me to be pretty lethal.

Standard 'Joe Normal' adepts can't tear apart an APC; that's what troll-drake adepts are for.  And of course, they never could.  Since you say you're not talking about mobility, and since even the basic example above shows a certain lethality ... can you be more specific as to what your issue is?

[Lucean]

For the record, Wyrm, Attribute Boost (STR) does nothing for damage per the written rules, as it's no dicepool.
If you want to punch through cars you need Smashing Blow, which is a good choice for a Qi Fokus, since you don't (shouldn't) need it that often.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

... can I get a page / FAQ reference on that, please?  Because, I mean, damage isn't a pool.

[Jack_Spade]

I don't get why you are all so hung up on doing damage with an unarmed melee concept. That's what weapons are for - to be a force multiplier.
Having a hard time to do lots of damage with your bare hands is a mark of distinction, not a flaw.

Besides, there are quite a lot of options: Disarm, throw, subdue, clinch, knock down are all viable. Not to mention the paralyzing strike ability.

If you really want to be someone who is gear independent, specialize on the disarm MA technique and just take your enemies gear to shoot them. Or just get a shock glove or get some shock fur on your armor

Last but not least, you can also get adept spell shape change and just become a grizzly or a tiger to maul your enemies.

[Hobbes]

The trick to all this is the same one for making any sort of 'sub-par' - and I use those quote marks deliberately - character:

Talk To The GM.

This.  There are several examples of Adept powers and Martial arts that increase your action economy efficiency for melee characters.  Ask your GM how they work with Unarmed.  Also, check with the GM before bringing a Kung Foo fighter to a gunfight.  If you invest an incredible amount of resources into a thing that isn't going to come up in a campaign, you'll be sad. 

Also, as myself and others have pointed out, if max  damage output is your goal, unarmed combat is the wrong skill for that.  Unarmed combat is a niche thing for very low profile work.  If you could do monowhip level damage as an unarmed fighter with minimal investment nobody would bother with weapons.

I guess I don't get your basic question.  Unarmed combat, by design, does less damage than weapons with the same level of investment.  And, IMO, that is the correct game design decision.  You can achieve a high level of unarmed damage with a large investment of character resources that is in the ballpark of what you can do with weapon based characters, but Monowhips and Assault Cannons are still going to be doing more damage.

[Mirikon]

This took me maybe 30-45 min to put together on a whim. Unarmed focused Adept with no ware, and decent abilities. And I know for a fact that I didn't push this as far as I could.

Kurokage
METATYPE: HUMAN
B 3, A 4, R 4/5, S 3, W 3, L 2, I 3, C 2, ESS 6, EDG 3, M 6
Condition Monitor (P/S): 10 / 10
Armor: 17
Limits: Physical 5, Mental 4, Social 5
Physical Initiative: 7/8+2D6
Matrix Initiative: 8+3D6
Active Skills: Artisan (Drawing +2) 4, Athletics Group 5, Escape Artist (Contortionism +2) 5, Etiquette (Yakuza +2) 3, First Aid 4, Free Fall 5, Locksmith (Tumbler +2) 5, Outdoors Group 1, Perception 5, Pistols (Semi-Automatics +2) 2, Stealth Group 4, Throwing Weapons (Blades +2) 5, Unarmed Combat 6 (9)
Knowledge Skills: Fine Dining 4, Seattle Yakuza 3
Languages: English 3, Japanese N
Qualities: Adept, Allergy, Uncommon (Mild): Silver, In Debt (Borrowed 20,000¥, Owes 30,000¥) (4), Lightweight, Mentor Spirit: Shark, Prejudiced (Specific) (Biased): Cybered, Spirit Bane: Spirits of Beasts, The Warrior's Way: Combat Sense, Critical Strike, Improved Ability
Adept Powers: Combat Sense (4), Critical Strike: Unarmed Combat, Improved Ability (3): Unarmed Combat, Improved Reflexes (1), Improved Sense: Ultrasound Sensor, Killing Hands, Missile Parry (4), Mystic Armor (2), Penetrating Strike (4)
Vehicles:
   Harley-Davidson Scorpion [Handling 4/3, Speed 4, Accel 2, Body 8, Armor 9, Pilot 1, Sensor 2, Seats 1]
Gear:
   Armor Jacket
   Autopicker (6)
   Ballistic Mask
   Bug Scanner (6)
   Certified Credstick, Standard
   Datachip x10
   Flashlight
   Forearm Guards
   Gecko Tape Gloves
   Glasses (4) w/ Flare Compensation, Low Light Vision, Smartlink, Vision Magnification, Electronic
   Kirigaya Kazuto w/ (1 month) Ares' Getting Network, Basic, Fake License: Private Investigator (4), Fake License: Weapons Permit (4), Fake SIN (4), (1 month) The Data Library of Alexandria, (1 month) Traveler Lifestyle
   Medkit (3)
   Novatech NetNinja w/ Diagnostics, P2.1, Sim Module, Ticker: News
   Qi Focus: Missile Parry (4) (4)
   Qi Focus: Mystic Armor (2) (4)
      Mystic Armor
   Simrig
   Stealth Tags x10
   Trodes
Weapons:
   Ares Predator V [Heavy Pistol, Acc 8, DV 8P, AP -5, SA, 15 (c)] w/ (60x) APDS, Personalized Grip, Smartgun System, Internal, (3x) Spare Clips
   Shock Glove [Unarmed, Acc 5, DV 9S(e), AP -5] w/ Internal Battery
   Throwing Knife x10 [Throwing Weapon, Acc 5, DV 4P, AP -1]
Contacts:
Bartender (Connection 1, Loyalty 2)
Fixer (Connection 3, Loyalty 2)
Starting ¥: 1,825 + (3D6 × 60)¥

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[Strange]

... can I get a page / FAQ reference on that, please?  Because, I mean, damage isn't a pool.

"This only affects your dice pools; your Physical limit and Initiative ratings don’t change with Attribute Boost."  SR5 pg 309.
"Add the attacker’s net hits to the Damage Value of the weapon to determine the modified Damage Value." SR5 pg 173.
Damage is a value, not a dice pool you get to roll.  Maybe not what the authors intended, as it does really cripple Attribute boost (STR).

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Hm.  Not the interpretation I'd take.

Limits and Initiative are derived attributes that include other attributes as well, and which don't change with a momentary boost; they are, so to speak, a holistic figuring of the body's ability.  I personally think otherwise, especially with Initiative, but I can see where the intent is going.  How hard you hit - armed and unarmed damage, in other words - is a direct, single-attribute value.

*shrugs*  In any case.  Going by your interpretation - and that's what I'd maintain it is, unless there's a specific statement about Attribute Boost (STR) not changing your Melee DVs directly - it shunts the 'required' Attribute Boost over to Agility instead, though it only makes for an average of +1 added successes, alas.  But you're still getting some pretty good bang for your buck, especially if you're a mid-range-attribute sort of person.

[Hobbes]

Attribute Boost Reaction becomes the problem child if you let the Boost powers add to values.  You're then picking up another initiative boost power that stacks with Adrenaline Boost or Improved Reflexes.  I suspect that is why the Boost power is "Dice Pools Only", too easy to hit the +4 Augmentation cap on Reaction. 

May or may not be a real balance issue, but I would guess that is what the concern was along with the Troll Axe Adept with a "cheap" +4 DV.  You're getting into "Yikes!" damage territory. 

It makes Attribute Boost Str an auto-pick for melee builds, and Attribute Boost Reaction a very powerful choice too.  May or may not be an issue at any given table so I think the devs went the conservative route and let the table GMs do what they feel is right for their game.

[Pap Renvela]

Attribute Boost Reaction becomes the problem child if you let the Boost powers add to values.  You're then picking up another initiative boost power that stacks with Adrenaline Boost or Improved Reflexes.  I suspect that is why the Boost power is "Dice Pools Only", too easy to hit the +4 Augmentation cap on Reaction. 

May or may not be a real balance issue, but I would guess that is what the concern was along with the Troll Axe Adept with a "cheap" +4 DV.  You're getting into "Yikes!" damage territory. 

It makes Attribute Boost Str an auto-pick for melee builds, and Attribute Boost Reaction a very powerful choice too.  May or may not be an issue at any given table so I think the devs went the conservative route and let the table GMs do what they feel is right for their game.

The author said he intended STR boost to add to damage but that it would have to wait for errata. Whether the line editor purposely changed the author's intent for balance reasons is unknown. The author only commented on STR not on REA/BOD so his intent on those is unclear. Still, until errata I play it as written which means I have little use for any but AGI boost.