[Jack_Spade]

So, while rereading R&G I tried to come up with a mundane solution to stop a cabal of blood mages to use a certain ritual site for their nefarious purposes.

Naturally, my preferred solution would be a large explosion to create enough background count to make sure their Nexus becomes really inhospital.

Now, my runner isn't made of money and not particularly interested in home cooking explosives.
To create a permanent background count you need a DV of 95+ and you have to lace it with either radiation or magically active bacteria.

Using commercial explosives to achieve a 95DV detonation, you'd need 19² kg= 361 kg.
That would cost him 36.1k Nuyen

Even if he just took the strongest available plastic explosives he'd need  36.1k Nuyen

ANFO is slightly more effective at 250,7 kg at 25.7k nuyen
With Ammonium Nitrate I'd need 565kg at 45.1k nuyen

Not really cost effective or easy to transport

But wait, there are relatively cheap and readily available prefabricated bombs to be had - HE Grenades.
Those pack a base DV of 16.
By the standard rules, getting to DV 96 would only require 11 grenades (16+8*10) or only 1.100 Nuyen

But let's assume for a moment the R&G explosive rules overwrite the existing rules.
The grenades probably won't weigh much more than 0,5 kg (rather less, or you'll have a hard time to throw this thing far enough)
If you'd pluck that into the formula from p. 176 RG: "The Damage Value of an explosive blast is calculated by taking the Modified Effective Rating x the square root of the number of kilograms used. "
You'd get that 1kg of the grenade explosives is worth 64 DV

For the 96DV explosion you'd only need 2,25 kg or the equivalent of 5 grenades

Even if you say 1 grenade is the equivalent of 1kg explosives (so you baseline 16DV corresponds to 1kg), you'd only need 36 grenades to get to 96DV

Conclusion: In the SR world you don't worry about commercial explosives. You just rig up a bunch of 'nades to take care of anything you want blown up.

(Bonus: For an archology you need 960 DV. Even with the conservative reading you'd only need grenades worth 360.000 nuyen - quite manageable for such a project)

[Dinendae]

During WWII the German stick grenade could have the stick removed, and the grenade cylinders could screw two together. From what I was told they would tie a bundle of those together, and use them as improvised demolitions and anti-tank weapons. There's definitely historical precedent for it, although depending on what you want demolished you might have to work up a triggering device.

[MijRai]

You're forgetting the Demolition test adds to the Rating of the explosives you use.  So Rating 5 Explosives, if you get 5 successes, count as Rating 10.  Rating 25 would become 30. 

100kg is 10,000 nuyen if you're using Commercial, assuming 5 hits. 

25kg at 37,500 nuyen if you're using Rating 15 Plastic or Foam, assuming 5 hits. 

Keep in mind explosives/demolitions generally isn't a fast process; you have to find the structural weak-points, set the charges (as you can see by the weights involved, lots of charges), etc.

I wouldn't let individual grenades stack that high, because they won't all detonate at the same time, with the same focus, etc.  It'd basically be multiple 16P attacks, not one larger one.  You're also assuming that all of the DV from HE Grenades is from the explosives being just that powerful.   

Your average grenade does in fact weigh about .5kg, by the way. 

I'm more concerned about where you got the numbers to cause a Background Count?  Where does it say that 95DV automatically does it?  Why not just set up the explosives to wipe out the mages outside the ritual if you're packing that much damage?  And I'm really concerned that you think making and detonating a dirty bomb is a good idea... 

[bangbangtequila]

During WWII the German stick grenade could have the stick removed, and the grenade cylinders could screw two together. From what I was told they would tie a bundle of those together, and use them as improvised demolitions and anti-tank weapons. There's definitely historical precedent for it, although depending on what you want demolished you might have to work up a triggering device.

Thanks to the glory of modern military technology, you wouldn't need that at all! Grenades have a wireless option, so you just need to have them be within PAN range of a 'link. Or, if you REALLY wanted to be sneaky, you can leave clusters of grenades along the line of a ventilation system and wire them to a timed detonator. They all have their own individual detonator and primer to ensure damn near perfectly synchronized detonation. Fantastic. I have 3 cases (20) of grenades on hand in my game (1 each of flash bangs, frags, and HE).

RE: MijRai, the grenades can detonate with better synchronicity then most explosives, having built in wireless detonators and primers per .5 kg of explosive. I agree, you don't just stack it, but his math isn't really off. A grenade at rating 16 makes sense, it is basically tamped (the casing requires the blast reach a certain amount of pressure before generating the shockwave - being steel, that is a decently high threshold) so that would be how you could justify the high DV for a .5kg charge.

You're totally right about the demolitions test. Technically, according to the formula for DV of the blast, a grenade is rating 11 explosive. Root of .5 is ~.7, .7 x 16 = 11. That formula was obviously not intended for less then 1 kg though.

Sorry to disagree with you twice in a row, I was already putting this up when you replied.

[MijRai]

And what, do you think wireless explosives timers/detonators can't be purchased for your normal explosives?  Assuming grenades are better at it than the kinds of explosives designed for that kind of work seems a little bit off to me.  I'd bet such detonators could be rigged in a way to maximize the damage potential better than a bunch of grenades can.  There's also the fact that you can direct those explosive charges, unlike grenades.

A modern, full-sized grenade has a bit over 6 ounces of explosives in it (about .18kg to .20kg), whether or not it is fragmentation or concussive (HE).  So the numbers are even more off. 

Trying to stack a bunch of grenades on top of each other to magnify their damage because it is cheaper than the explosives meant for the task is flat-out cheese, and cheese that doesn't make sense.

[bangbangtequila]

It would be really, really expensive to insert a detonator and primer into every kg of explosive, while grenades are mass produced with them built in. They are also mass produced with a high grade of military explosive. It's sort of like how you can get a phone for far cheaper then the sum of its parts purchased individually.


I would only use them in place of explosives if I had no demolition skill. That same character which has all the grenades also has six detonators of various types and five kg of commercial explosives. Grenades are great for sticking three spaced evenly around columns or something and detonating them remotely on the fly. In terms of balance, I just wouldn't allow the demolition skill to alter the rating if grenades. So teamwork, leadership, and taking a little extra time would make even cheap explosive much better.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Grenades are also not generally designed as anti-structure explosives. Some variants of grenades (at least in games) exist for anitvehicle purposes, but they don't have enough explosives or correct type to destroy a building.

[kyoto kid]

...in one recent job mu character,Leela brought down a decent sized sized house using 12 Kilos of TNT. (base rating 5) with 4 successes to the device design test that boosted each kilo to DV9.  Creating four three kilo charges (by the table in R &G) yielded 16P DV for each charge.  As they were placed against the main load bearing structural members that doubled the DV of each charge to 32P (total of 128P vs. the structure).  This only affected the structure anyone caught inside (a strike team that entered the house after we left) would have been subject to the 16P DV of one or two of the individual charges (depending on where they were standing at the time of the detonation), as well as any collateral effect from collapsing debris/shrapnel.

As Leela placed 4 charges in different locations of the building, none of which were over 35P, there was no risk of BGC even given the casualties of the 6 person strike team.

OK, so lets say Leela wants to do the same as the character mentioned in the OP here.  She would first need 70 kilos of TNT (hopefully her Fixer/Explosives black market contact "Uncle Josef" laundered the sale well).  She gets five initial successes in the test to design the base charges, improving each kilo used to an effective rating of 10. Next she would need to set up seven individual 10 KG charges (Average Device) at a threshold of 12 and interval of 1 hour on the extended test for each. As she has a high pool (16 with Commercial explosives) for simplicity sake lets say she is able to succeed in four rolls which is 4 hours each (28 hours total). Now she needs to wire all 7 charges together to make one single device to produce the 75P blast.  As the total DV will exceed 10 it will need to be a complex device with an interval of a day and threshold of 7 (1 for each charge that is wired together).  It takes her only two additional days to complete the device. Provided she knocks off for a few hours sleep (so as not to be tired) we are looking at about seven days to fabricate the bomb which is not a small device so planting and concealing it will be a challenge in and of itself

Unfortunately at best, all her hard work and expense will only create a temporary BGC that will disappear in 3 hours. Even through her black market contact, getting hold of highly controlled substances like FAB or radioactive material is pretty much out of the question especially considering he just recently moved 70 kilos of commercial grade TNT.  Granted, in Chicago's CZ she could probably find enough contaminated material from the Cermak blast to make  a dirty bomb, but who in their right mind (other than the local toxic shaman) would want to handle it?  So there still  is the dilemma of making the BGC permanent.

Well there is a way, though not the most "ethical" mind you, as it would require a metahuman casualty to make the BGC permanent.  Now this could be done through less than tasteful means such as knocking out and abducting someone and tying them to the bomb, or more reasonable, when other members of the cult are present at the site. Again delivery of or planting the device will pose a challenge but could be the basis of a run by itself.

[Rooks]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_bomb so not too far a stretch to make some sort of bomb when activated has no roll but better hope you make 3 hits else you maybe off target

[MijRai]

Seriously, where is this 'explosives make Background Count' thing? 

And Kyoto, a murder doesn't cause a permanent Background Count. 

[Jack_Spade]

It does.
Read the rules in R&G p. 176ff

By the way: Getting FAB I is not particularly hard

[MijRai]

Thanks for the page number. 

So Run & Gun explicitly contradicts Street Grimoire on how murders/deaths cause Background Count and the duration.  Great.  I'd lean towards going with Street Grimoire over Run & Gun in this situation, but I don't trust Street Grimoire much. 

When will they be updating Errata again?  It's been two years, last I checked. 

[kyoto kid]

...where is there mention in 5E of the availability of FAB? 

I remember FAB being listed under Security Gear in MITS p. 90 (3E). According to the description, Strain I would die once it came into contact with an astral form thus emitting a glow that could be seen in UV light. Strain II was dual natured and could also be used in walls to create an astral barrier based on it's force. Strain III is also dual natured but also would seek out and feed on sources of magical energy like foci, spirits, or awakened individuals.  Strain III is what the UCAS military used to help defeat the bug spirits in Chicago which contributed to the persistent BGCs that now exist in the CZ.  Based on this, most likely Strain III would be required as a component of the blast.

The MITS gear listing, only has prices and availability for FAB Strains I and II which indicates that Strain III would definitely be a highly controlled substance (and rightfully so considering how lethal it is to awakened individuals).

According to the paragraph in R & G pages 90- 91 on using exotic materials like biolgical/chemical weapons, radioactive materials or FAB it states:

"If these Items are included in an explosive device (which most runners won't do only because they lack access to such material) background count of 4 would begin to apply following the normal background count rules..."

So basically, this makes it sound rather improbable that a character would be able to get his or her hands Strain III FAB as well as any materials to make a "dirty bomb".  Furthermore the damage to the local environment by such a device would also create a permanent toxic zone in the diameter of the blast.  Not sure that would be a good tradeoff.

It would sound simpler (and more effective both tactically and economically) to find some way to take out the members of the cult itself. as they'd just go underground and most likely find some other place to consecrate (or defile) for their rituals.

[Jack_Spade]

FAB can be found in Street Grimoire p. 217 and 212
FAB I has Ava 10
FAB II is 16R

The stuff is 50 nuyen per m²

[Reaver]

Thanks for the page number. 

So Run & Gun explicitly contradicts Street Grimoire on how murders/deaths cause Background Count and the duration.  Great.  I'd lean towards going with Street Grimoire over Run & Gun in this situation, but I don't trust Street Grimoire much. 

When will they be updating Errata again?  It's been two years, last I checked.

Always go by the newest book. In this case SG.

While a single murder does increase the background count, it quickly returns to normal (a few hours.)

It takes a massive amount of suffering and death to make a permanent background count..... So, blowing up a hospital, or a full school would make a lasting back ground count. Blowing up Stu, would make a temporary spike.

Other ways to increase a background count: Strong emotions.

If you are going through the effort of vaporizing some schmuck  just to raise the BG, you might as well do it through sustained, prolonged torture... you sick bastard