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A plea to 6e Designers

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KraakenDazs

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« Reply #45 on: <03-16-16/2155:56> »
Big has a point though. Same as WhiskeyJack or a number of others have stated

They dont have to.

Just like

You don't have to purchase their products

If it's their conscious choice, be it due to fund limitation, manpower limitation, or willingness limitation, they can do as shoddy a work as they want (and for the record, i dont think anything besides the editing jobs is that shoddy..but omg the editing..) , then there's nothing we have to say about it. The right to the Shadowrun line of products is theirs. Houserule it all or change games, ask away, but dont expect to be owed products up to your expectation. You're not. No one is. You exchange currency for the product offered, as is. Not a promise to fix it if it's not on par with your desire. (But it's still legitimate to want or to ask for it..it just isn't realistic nor fair to the writers to demand it.)

Hell, i'll RE-PAY for a well-edited edition. I'll also purchase the products i havent purchased yet because of the horrid editing ive witnessed on friend's copies, reviews or whatnot.
Maybe, just maybe, concrete and Plasteel are MEANT to armor our planet, and not harm it, omae. Hydroponics can nourish our needy. And i assure you nuclear energy's been involved in getting you that fancy 'ware, chummer.Our mistake? Trading Wisdom for Greed. - Dögan "Babyface" Kross

MijRai

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« Reply #46 on: <03-17-16/0157:04> »
Well, to start I never said they 'have to'.  I said should.

It is sad to say, but I don't expect Catalyst to bother at this point; my own personal pipe dream, if you will.  The writers obviously try, and I love their part of the work.  But when a company goes for years without addressing the mistakes and errors in a product while providing that kind of care to another?  Obviously there's a problem. 

They don't 'need' to support Shadowrun, sure.  But by not fixing the errors, they're going to lose money.  They're going to lose fans, they're going to lose in the end.  By not doing their jobs to a reasonable standard, they're causing themselves harm.  I've already stated my decision to not buy their products until they're up to my standard.  I know folks who've flat-out sworn off of Shadowrun at this point.  I've got an illustrator friend who no longer does work for Catalyst because of how they do things.  I hate hearing it, but I understand it. 

In my opinion, charging the prices they have does entail certain expectations.  If you went out and bought a 60 dollar video game, put it in your console/PC, then found out it was a glitchy, bug-ridden game whose flaws suck the fun out of playing, would you not return it?  Or not expect some patches to fix the stuff they've obviously botched?  Which is why, since they've failed repeatedly, I'm no longer going to be a customer until they FIX it.  I can't return what I've already acquired at this point, but I can save myself some cash and not lower my expectations some more. 

If money really is the only issue (it isn't, but hey), I'd consider chipping in on a Kickstarter to pay for a comprehensive, official Errata (to include updating all of the current PDFs).  I wouldn't re-purchase jack though, wouldn't trust any newer products and if Catalyst tried charging people to get an updated copy with the corrections and adjustments that should have been in the product from the beginning, I'd never touch a product from them again. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #47 on: <03-17-16/0206:33> »
If you don't want silence, don't insult the developers actually on Catalyst's payroll. The attitude has gotten to where the freelancers barely like coming here, and since so much of the hatred is directed at those others, they're even less likely to show up and say anything.

Get this whole "the customer is always right" drek out of your heads. It isn't true, and it never will be. With very few exceptions, the customer doesn't know what they're talking about because, as just about every freelancer has pointed out, NDAs prevent revealing anything going on behind the curtain and rightly so.
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KraakenDazs

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« Reply #48 on: <03-17-16/0211:10> »
Oh trust me, i'd wait for reviews too before shelling my hard earned nuyen or a re-edited reprint :P

But yeah..wallets speaks louder than forum posts these days, and i can't find a fault in your opinion, besides it comes off as a bit abrasive (but maybe it's the pot calling the kettle black, to be faire :P). I also believe it should be fixed. We would definitely like more transparency from those allowed to speak of it. My main point was: We can't expect it, or feel like it's owed to us, because really...we're not.  :P

I like Shadowrun, i like what's been done with it in 5e, i have many, MANY gripes with it,  i still hope it gets better, which is why i voice my complaints and cheers here like all of us. The day i give up is the day i'll leave these boards entirely. Hell if i felt i understood how to contribute towards a direction i approve of, i like would like to do my own part to help out. :P
« Last Edit: <03-17-16/0214:15> by KraakenDazs »
Maybe, just maybe, concrete and Plasteel are MEANT to armor our planet, and not harm it, omae. Hydroponics can nourish our needy. And i assure you nuclear energy's been involved in getting you that fancy 'ware, chummer.Our mistake? Trading Wisdom for Greed. - Dögan "Babyface" Kross

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #49 on: <03-17-16/0215:30> »
All4:

I agree the insulting is never a bad idea.

But this isn't "Customer is always right" stuff, because I agree most people don't know a bloody thing about what goes on behind the scenes. Most of us aren't even talking about nit-picking spelling errors. (Yes, I know it's important and shows the over-all quality, but bare with me.

What we're talking about is an Echo in Data Trails that uses 4e mechanics.

Or entire tables of augmentations in Chrome Flesh so garbled it's impossible to use them.

These aren't minor issues... these are major snafus that make it impossible to use the material, things like tables especially could be EASILY fixed by quick errata... instead we get the cone of silence.

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jim1701

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« Reply #50 on: <03-17-16/0233:56> »
...but dont expect to be owed products up to your expectation.

Uh, ok.  Wait, sorry, no.   ::)  I don't expect the product to be perfect out of the gate but I do expect corrections to errors to be published in a timely manner.  I myself am pretty flexible on just how long timely stands for but I think after two and a half years I can expect to be owed some sort of update to the CRB at the very least.  The Shadowrun devs have to decide if they are going to be used car salesmen and sell their product "as is" or are they going to be new car salesmen and stand behind their product when things don't go as planned. 

But you are absolutely right about one thing.  I don't have to purchase their products and I will not be purchasing any Shadowrun products for the foreseeable future.  However, since I have purchased their products in the past I will continue to request they address their existing issues. 

MijRai

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« Reply #51 on: <03-17-16/0310:23> »
Openly pointing out there are products whose quality is blatantly inferior to what is expected or when compared to contemporary products shouldn't be insulting.  Nor should pointing out the mistakes and problems.  I still haven't seen anyone actually come out and defend these copious errors and flaws that mar this game.  Shit, if I were an editor in the position where I had to claim a product with this many mistakes as my work, I'd be ashamed. 

There's no excuse for the quality of editing at this point (an NDA doesn't justify jack; neither the problems the system currently has or whatever is causing it behind the curtains), nor is there an excuse for not continuing the support for this product (especially when they're giving plenty of regular support to a different product); someone, somewhere is allowing this to happen for some reason.  It may be a 'good' reason to them for all we know.  It is a shoddy excuse either way. 

I'm with Kraaken on why I'm here.  I am hoping it gets better, and if possible I want to contribute.  The day I give up is the day I stop coming here. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #52 on: <03-17-16/0317:06> »
@MijRai you may not have been, but there have in the past been plenty of insults thrown at freelancers, line producers and others at CGL.
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KraakenDazs

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« Reply #53 on: <03-17-16/0414:36> »
...but dont expect to be owed products up to your expectation.

Uh, ok.  Wait, sorry, no.   ::)  I don't expect the product to be perfect out of the gate but I do expect corrections to errors to be published in a timely manner.  I myself am pretty flexible on just how long timely stands for but I think after two and a half years I can expect to be owed some sort of update to the CRB at the very least.  The Shadowrun devs have to decide if they are going to be used car salesmen and sell their product "as is" or are they going to be new car salesmen and stand behind their product when things don't go as planned. 

But you are absolutely right about one thing.  I don't have to purchase their products and I will not be purchasing any Shadowrun products for the foreseeable future.  However, since I have purchased their products in the past I will continue to request they address their existing issues.

I buy something that's too defective for my enjoyment, i expect a refund or to deal with my frustrations, not a fix . Anyone , including the devs, have a right to sell "As is" , thats my whole point. :P

And afterwards, everyone can decide to pay or not. Some pdfs i outright refuse to buy despite them being out for months. Others i gladly shelled out for. For example the latest missions on DriveThru RPG i heartily recommend if you want to play missions.

Buying expecting something than demanding a fix is just reaaaally naive, OR masochistic, in my humble opinion :P
Maybe, just maybe, concrete and Plasteel are MEANT to armor our planet, and not harm it, omae. Hydroponics can nourish our needy. And i assure you nuclear energy's been involved in getting you that fancy 'ware, chummer.Our mistake? Trading Wisdom for Greed. - Dögan "Babyface" Kross

Zar

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« Reply #54 on: <03-17-16/0922:57> »
Whether they put out an errata'd set of books or a new edition, it doesn't matter to me as long as the game is better.  I just keep seeing problems band-aided instead of fixed.  They don't want overwrite something they have already printed and that means we won't get a chance to see real changes until the next edition.

Whether or not Catalyst is working on 6e, I still request that when they do, that they focus on the rules and eliminating the need for errata in the first place.  We don't really need an errata'd Street Grimoire.   We need a Street Grimoire 2.0.  Are we more likely to see that or get a 6e version?  It doesn't matter as long is the end result replaces the one we have.

Wakshaani

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« Reply #55 on: <03-17-16/1001:04> »
For what it's worth, we could drop some unofficial things out there, but, well, unofficial. They'd be about a sbinding as if the boards, here, got together and hashed out an errata doc of their own. WIthout that stamp from on high, it doesn't mean anything. Freelancers are wordprocesssors-for-hire, not actual company people. We gots no authority, nor should we. It's the height of hubris to stroll in here and give Official Errata to something that, say, I hacked out over an hour long typefest. That can get you on the hook *so* fast. I can point out an error in a chart, I can try to explain how something was intended, I can give me viewpoints on stuff, but they're all, you know, just *me*, not the guys upstairs.

Until they move, no one else can go official.

It's kinda like a football game. You're at home and watch the ref blow a call. The players (that'd be freelancers) in this can argue about it until they're blue in teh face, and lord knows teh fans in the bar are gonna go ballistic, but the refs are where it begins and ends. (And, for the record, they get it right 98% of teh time. It's when they get it wrong that people go crazy. Same thing here. Rigger 5 has the correct numbers in almost every place, art is aligned to vehicles, names are correct, details bout the vehicle are in the right place, etc, but a couple entries are shifted by one column. That isn't a "landslide of failure", but it *is* a mistake and one that needs fixin'. Point out mistakes, demand a higher standard, but keep some perspective too, that's all I ask.)

Love you guys, love the game, and again, I don't take this stuff personal. There are more of us listening than talking, so when you find errors, keep letting us know! This stuff's important.

Zar

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« Reply #56 on: <03-17-16/1026:25> »
How do we community errata something like the weakness of drones when it has already been band-aided with armor upgrades?  Do we as a community say "That's not enough Catalyst , we think it Drone armor should be hardened"   That's great for a house rule in our games but doesn't help with RunnerHub or Missions.

jim1701

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« Reply #57 on: <03-17-16/1041:49> »
Wakshaani, I'm sure we all appreciate anything and everything you writers can tells us about fixes unofficial as they may be.  I certainly do. 

My problem is that CGL has a highly effective errata reporting and documenting system in place right now that has been functioning for several years now.  As I understand it about 90% of the work is done by volunteers.  They also have a highly effective rules forum where players can ask and usually (not always) receive a timely, official answer to how a vague or contradictory rule actually works.  Again this is mostly done by volunteers.  All the decision making is still done by the devs, the volunteers primarily act as something like file clerks and go betweens.  A little cross team communication with the Battletech folks and they could have the same system up and working in a couple weeks if they wanted to.  The only real challenging part should be making the necessary changes to the boards to accomodate the system. 

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #58 on: <03-17-16/1536:43> »
My only real complaints remaining about 5e so far are the following:

Priority Generation being primary (in Core) with no true Build Point (Karma Generation is not Point Buy no matter what you label it)
"Fluffy Bits" overload in Rules Supplements
No 'ground up' creation rules for weapons, vehicles and 'decks. (was a problem in 4 and 4A as well)
Modification rules lack the depth even of the previous edition's version
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dragrubis

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« Reply #59 on: <04-04-16/0809:52> »
Sample with a full team with all main type of characters... may be as separate pdf...
How to destroy a gmc bullvan
How to open a door
How to copy Securised datas
How to kill de spirit
How to jump to the next roof
How to detect the snake in the corner

Seeing if IAs, decker and technos have with the same cost the same (karma, nuyens, fading) chance with different tricks
Seeing if gunslinger and mage have with the same cost the same (karma, nuyens, fading) chance with different tricks
Seeing if technos and mage have with the same cost (karma, nuyens, fading) the same chance with different tricks (and make the mage cannot do thing that are matrix revealant or please upgrade capacities of technos...)
Seeing if adept and streetsam have with the same cost (karma, nuyens, fading?) the same chance with different tricks
Seeing if rigger, dronomancers and critter trainer/master have with the same cost (karma, nuyens, fading) the same chance with different tricks
and so on