[Whiskeyjack]

I'm aware of that perception rule, I'm also aware a lot of people disagree with it.

Thanks for the suggestions.

I haven't see disagreement so much as just...not remembering (or caring) to implement it.

Wear armor when you're working that actually looks like armor.

Do people...not? There's no value in not wearing real armor in this game. It's not like there's spell failure percentages!

[farothel]

Also, always try to have cover.  Even if the opposition knows you are the mage and they want to shoot you in the face, it's going to be a lot more difficult if they can hardly see said face.  Being in cover can mean the difference between being hit or not.  This obviously counts for every character who is mainly ranged combat based.

[Hibiki54]

I also have not seen disagreement with it, just folks that try to fluff spell casting to be what it's not.

Keep in mind that spellcasting, whether it is direct or indirect combat spells, illusions, healing, manipulation, or even counter-spelling, it's fairly clear that you're doing some weird crap that less than 10% of the world population can do. It's obvious because it stands out and effects the world around you, especially when you're slinging spells Force 6 or higher.

[Mirikon]

Wear armor when you're working that actually looks like armor.

Do people...not? There's no value in not wearing real armor in this game. It's not like there's spell failure percentages!

OK, that's a holdover from 3.5, where you had limits based on Body to how much Armor you could have. But basically, it ties in with the point I made about weapons. Think of it as camouflage. If you're carrying similar arms and wearing similar armor to the gunbunny, then they're not going to pick you out as a mage until you throw spells, unless they have a mage of their own.

Which leads into my whole deal of having multiple sets of armor, for different occasions. Lined coat for casual/legwork, something fancy for night out/society, chameleon suit for stealth, heaviest stuff that won't draw too much attention for 'let slip the dogs of war'.

[Senko]

I have seen threads debating it usually along the lines of fireballs being balatantly obvious ranging down to something like enhance aim or the phsyical buff spells should be subtle and barely noticeable and if that only in a that 5'2 slender girl looks like she's carrying a 90 klio crate . . .. not in a there is magic in the air and that doesn't even touch on ones like mob mood or the like that are purely mental. By the rules someoone under a force 6 control thoughts spell walks into a room and everyone there will probably know they're under a spell before a word is said . . .

Perception + Inutition [Mental] test vs Caster Skill Rating - Force or 6 - Force
3 + 3 (average stats for argument) vs caster skill rating (starting runner at 8 say 6 + skill mod) - 6 (force) = 6 dice vs two. Even if you assume perception 0 they're rolling 3 dice vs two.

Even though there's no glow, no chanting, no outside sign at all and the person noticing it has no magical talent at all. Still that's another thread and another debate so I'll say no more on that subject unless someone creates a new thread on it.

As for the armour thing I assumed they merely meant go in with the equivilent of SWAT armour as opposed to dermal plating or the like designed to not look like armour so you can meet with the important people without offending.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Senko
The test to notice magic is not an opposed test, it's a success test with the threshold being Magic of the Spellcaster - Force; so your average peon with Intuition 3 and no ranks in Perception just needs a single hit on 2 dice to spot a Magic 6 Magician casting a Force 6 spell, as the shaping of Mana can be visible to even the most mundane metahuman.

This only applies when the spell is cast, however, and not to the sustained spell effect. So the observer must have a clear line of sight to the spellcaster for the test to even be necessary.

[Rosa]

I agree with Senko that the rules for noticing magic are too simple as they are, not denying what the rules say, but they are way too simple.

First of all reading the section on noticing magic, the reasoning seems to be that.......1) Magicians often use gestures or chants,  2) Magic is often accompanied by feelings of chills, dread..etc. and people are very familiar with these feelings and their association with magic and 3) Spirits present in astral Space can sometimes cause a shimmer.

1) By their own desciption a magician casting a spell need to do nothing else but concentrate. No gestures or chanting is necessary, in fact magicians mostly use those kinds of Things in connection with centering.

2) By their own descriptions magicians and real magic is very very rare and most people are unlikely to have any personal experience wih them/ it, in fact most people hold wildly inaccurate opinions and expectations regarding magic based on trid shows.

3) sometimes cause a shimmer ...... well what exactly is sometimes? what if it's dark? or it's raining.

There should be a list of circumstances under which the test to notice should be allowed, barring that there should at least be a list of modifiers to the test but there's no such thing.

The fact is that all those Things that they mention could and commonly is caused by a Whole host of other reasons and unless the person experiencing these effects are intimately familiar with magic, most people would associate them with other Things.

Ofc there are sometimes when magic is obvious, such as any use of indirect combat spells ( except maybe blast ), levitation and those kinds of Things, but there are times as well where circumstances and so on should make it damn hard to notice.

Now, i know why the rule exists, and it should exist, but not in the current form in my opinion. They simply contradict their own explanations way too much. the rule as it is would make sense in D&D, not in Shadowrun.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Rosa
At my table, we apply both the regular perception modifiers (i.e. not looking, specifically looking, etc) as well as environmental modifiers (light/glare, visibility, etc) to the perception test to notice magic. Remember, the rules are guidelines, nothing more. If you want to make it harder or easier to spot magic being cast, that's entirely up to you (or the GM, if you're not it).

[Rosa]

That sounds like a good start.

[Kincaid]

People always seem so confused when I apply the -2 dice (Distracted) modifier to Perception tests in combat.  Getting sprayed with fully automatic fire can be a little distracting.

[Reaver]

The reason the noticing magic test is so easy its tied to the amount of mana you are pulling....

A magic 6 mage casting a force 6 spell is surrounded by a nimbus of visible mana around them as they literally pull in all the mana they can safely hold to shape into a spell.
(Threshold 0)

That same mage casting a force 1 spell wouldn't be very noticable. As the amount of mana he pulls in is very small...
(Threshold 5)

[Mirikon]

As Reaver said. If you want to go unnoticed casting spells, there's really only two ways to go about it:

1) Be somewhere that people can't see you, but you can see your target. Darkened alleyways, rooftops, peaking from behind a curtain, whatever.

2) Cast low force spells to slip in effects without people noticing. This works best on uncontested spells, where you only need a hit or two to get the desired effect.

[Senko]

I know I said I wasn't going to comment on this but again I've missed something where does it say channeling mana makes you glow like a lightbulb and what if your someone like Harlequinn who can probably safely change a force 20 spell is he the equivilent of a flash bang going off lighting up the entire room and potentially  blinding oponents? For that matter what about inately magical creatures or physical adepts with permanently active powers are they constantly surrounded by a dull glow as they channel that mana? This would mean you'd be less likely to be noticed if you were in a brihghtly lit space where it gets drowned out by other light sources but in a darkened alley or similar you'd stand out like a sore thumb. For that matter why do you only glow when casting if your sustaining a spell and chaneling all that mana into it shouldn't you continue to glow as your constantly directing all that force 6 power into X effect?

Personally I don't recall ever reading anything fluff or mechanics wise to explain that perception check except the perception check itself and there is a lot that as Rosa said that makes it make no sense in the system except as a mechanical check to keep spellcasters from running wild. This isn't like DND where you speak, gesture and have to use material components to power a spell you merely focus and bam magical effect unless your centerriing or using reagents to overpower a spell and that's a different matter.

[Herr Brackhaus]

<znip> where does it say channeling mana makes you glow like a lightbulb <znip>

You're looking (hah!) for the Perceiving Magic section on page 280 and 281, specifically this:

Noticing magic is a Simple Perception + Intuition [Mental] Test with a threshold equal to the Skill Rating of the being performing it minus the Force of the magic, or 6 – Force if there’s no skill involved (minimum 1 in either case). <znip> You get a + 2 dice pool modifier on this test if you have any magic-related Active or Knowledge Skill.

Note that it doesn't say you "glow like a lightbulb", but that the spellcasting itself or the effects thereof are noticable. Big difference. Also, consider the following from the first paragraph of that section:

Magic is rarely subtle. Any form of magic (conjuring, spellcasting, enchanting, magical lodges, spirits, etc.) changes the world around it. Sometimes it’s obvious through a magician’s gestures or incantations (magicians seen by non-Awakened people are sometimes called “twitchy fingers”). Spirits sometimes cause the air to shimmer, even from astral space. People have reported feeling chills, dread, or other unnatural sensations they can’t quite put their finger on when magic is in the area.

Only if you initiate into the arts and gain access to certain metamagics and/or work with mana that is safely below your own ability (i.e. Force is 5 or more levels less than your Magic Attribute) is the casting attempt or effects sufficiently subtle for most people to avoid noticing.

<znip> what if your someone like Harlequinn who can probably safely change a force 20 spell <znip>

As the perception test is variable based on the Magic attribute of the spellcaster, it depends. Let's take Harlequin and compare him to a relatively strong magician going by Shadowrun fiction (Magic attribute of 6). As of Street Legends, Harlequin has a Magic Attribute of 30; effectively, he is stronger than your beginning Shadowrunner by a factor of 5, and could easily cast a Force 20 spell without being seen as it would take a Perception test with a threshold of of (30-20=10) for anyone to notice the effects. So yeah, Harlequin is a bit of a special case, obviously

For that matter what about inately magical creatures or physical adepts with permanently active powers are they constantly surrounded by a dull glow as they channel that mana?

Good question; innate powers are usually treated differently than shaping mana, and is not mentioned in the "any form of magic" examples above (conjuring, spellcasting, enchanting, and spirits are specifically called out, but they do cover themselves with an "etc" at the end), and like adept powers it's more of an inward magic than an outward one. Also keep in mind that this is purely when magic is shaped; a sustained spell has an aura in the Astral plane, but unless specifically called out like the Armor spell isn't inherently noticable. Only when the spell is cast do you get a chance to notice the spell, at least as I read it.

This would mean you'd be less likely to be noticed if you were in a brihghtly lit space where it gets drowned out by other light sources but in a darkened alley or similar you'd stand out like a sore thumb. For that matter why do you only glow when casting if your sustaining a spell and chaneling all that mana into it shouldn't you continue to glow as your constantly directing all that force 6 power into X effect?

Again, it's not like a lightbulb, that's only the Armor spell. For the rest, see above from page 280.

Personally I don't recall ever reading anything fluff or mechanics wise to explain that perception check except the perception check itself and there is a lot that as Rosa said that makes it make no sense in the system except as a mechanical check to keep spellcasters from running wild. This isn't like DND where you speak, gesture and have to use material components to power a spell you merely focus and bam magical effect unless your centerriing or using reagents to overpower a spell and that's a different matter.

Again, see above

Shadowrun isn't the opposite of D&D; there are plenty of magicians who choose to learn Centering when they initiate to better handle drain, and one of the key requirements for Centering is that it cannot be subtle. Besides that, even if the magician is entirely immobile when casting a spell there's still a chance of noticing the effects of said casting, as per page 280.

[Senko]

Obviously but what if he does cast a force 30 spell going for his maximum power?

I'd like to point out the following specific points in that bit you quoted . . .

Magic is RARELY subtle. Any form of magic (conjuring, spellcasting, enchanting, magical lodges, spirits, etc.) changes the world around it. SOMETIMES it’s obvious through a magician’s gestures or incantations (magicians seen by non-Awakened people are sometimes called “twitchy fingers”). Spirits SOMETIMES cause the air to shimmer, even from astral space. People have reported feeling chills, dread, or other unnatural sensations they can’t quite put their finger on when magic is in the area.

3 of the situations have exceptions magic is rarely subtle not never, somtimes its obvious through a magicians actions not always, somtimes the air shimmers not always. People have is sort of up to interpretation it could be read as them always feeling  those things although I personally don't see it that way but if you do read it as always having that effect you again come back to my question about what of those who are always channeling some magic via their very nature? Still its probably going to come to the GM in each individual case but really considering most people expect movie "You shall not pass" effects a chill that could be attributed to the AC seems a pretty poor justification for this spot check.

If Joe Schlub can feel magic being done by any except the most powerful mages why bother paying for magical security on any but the most important facilities it just wouldn't be cost effective. Why would a casino pay a mage to watch for magical tampering when everyone else at the table starts screaming "I feel chills/dread/unnatural feelings the guy who just rolled the dice is cheating magically!"