[FST_Gemstar]

A quick workup after thinking about how to paralyze/incapacitate someone reducing an attribute to 0....

I present: Needles.

Karma expenses: 10 Strength, 10 Logic, 2 Nuyen, 18 Positive Qualities, 10 foci, -25 negative qualities. Remaining 0.

== Info ==
Street Name:
Name: Unnamed Character
Movement: 4/8
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Human
Composure: 9
Judge Intentions: 11
Lift/Carry: 5 (30 kg/20 kg)
Memory: 5
Nuyen: 525

== Priorities ==
Metatype: E(0) - Human
Attributes: C(2) - 16 Attributes
Special: A(4) - Magician or Technomancer
Skills: B(3) - 36 Skills/5 Skill Groups
Resources: D(1) - 50,000¥

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 2
REA: 3
STR: 2
CHA: 6
INT: 5
LOG: 2
WIL: 3
EDG: 3
MAG: 6

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   6
Initiative:                8 + 1d6
Rigger Initiative:         8 + 1d6
Astral Initiative:         10 + 2d6
Matrix AR Initiative:      8 + 1d6
Matrix Cold Initiative:    5 + DP + 3d6
Matrix Hot Initiative:     5 + DP + 4d6
Physical Damage Track:     10
Stun Damage Track:         10

== Limits ==
Physical:                  4
Mental:                    4
Social:                    7
   Ballistic Mask [+1] (Only for intimidation, Must be visible)
Astral:                    7

== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling            : 0                      Pool: 5
Archery                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Armorer                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Assensing                  : 1 [Aura Reading]       Pool: 6 (
Automatics                 : 0                      Pool: 1
Binding                    : 6 [Spirits of Man]     Pool: 12 (14)
Blades                     : 0                      Pool: 1
Clubs                      : 0                      Pool: 1
Computer                   : 0                      Pool: 1
Con                        : 5                      Pool: 11
Counterspelling            : 3                      Pool: 9
Cybercombat                : 0                      Pool: 1
Demolitions                : 0                      Pool: 1
Disguise                   : 3                      Pool: 8
Diving                     : 0                      Pool: 2
Escape Artist              : 0                      Pool: 1
Etiquette                  : 1 [Corporate]          Pool: 7 (9)
Impersonation              : 5                      Pool: 11
Medicine                   : 1 [Extended Care]      Pool: 5 (7)
Negotiation                : 6 [Bargaining]         Pool: 12 (14)
Perception                 : 3 [Visual]             Pool: 8 (10)
Performance                : 5                      Pool: 11
Sneaking                   : 1 [Urban]              Pool: 3 (5)
Spellcasting               : 6 [Health]             Pool: 12 (14)
Summoning                  : 6 [Spirits of Man]     Pool: 12 (14)

== Knowledge Skills ==
Biology                    : 2 [Parabotany]         Pool: 4 (6)
English                    : N                      Pool: 0
Hospital Procedures        : 3                      Pool: 8
Puppetry                   : 2                      Pool: 7
Sprawl Life                : 1 [Street Docs]        Pool: 6 (
Underworld                 : 3 [Kidnapping]         Pool: 8 (10)

== Contacts ==
; Fixer (5, 2)
; Corporate Chemist (5, 2)
; Talismonger (3, 1)

== Qualities ==
Hawk Eye
Infirm II
Jack of All Trades Master of None
Magician
Mentor Spirit (Great Mother)
Poisoner
Day Job  (Hospice Facility) - 5 karma
Weak Immune System

== Spells ==
(Tradition: Obeah, Resist Drain with WIL + CHA (9))
Convert Blood to Ichor     DV: F
Decrease [Attribute] (STR) DV: F-2
Decrease [Attribute] (LOG) DV: F-2
Decrease [Attribute] (CHA) DV: F-2
Enabler                    DV: F-3
Fling                      DV: F-2
Heal                       DV: F-4
Improved Invisibility      DV: F-1
Increase Reflexes          DV: F
Levitate                   DV: F-2

== Lifestyles ==
Low  1 months

== Armor ==
Armor Clothing ("Nice")                       6
Armor Jacket                        12
Ballistic Mask                      2

== Weapons ==
Survival Knife
   Pool: 1   Accuracy: 5   DV: 4P   AP: -1   RC: 2
Throwing Syringe
   Pool: 0   Accuracy: 4   DV: 0P   AP: -1   RC: 2
Unarmed Attack
   Pool: 1   Accuracy: 4   DV: 2S   AP: -   RC: 2

== Commlink ==
MCT-3500 (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 3, FWL: 3)
   +Fake SIN Rating 4 [Fake License 4 (Medical License), Fake License 4 (Mage License), Fake License 4 (Bounty Hunter's License)]
   +Subvocal Mic
   +Micro-Transceiver
   +Sim Module

== Gear ==
Ambulance Gurney
Backpack (Good)
Biomonitor
Glasses Rating 4
   +Camera, Micro Rating 1
   +Flare Compensation
   +Image Link
   +Low Light
Magical Lodge Materials Rating 6
Medkit Rating 4
Narcoject x10
Reagents, per dram x300
Slap Patch, Stim Patch Rating 6 x3
Slap Patch, Stim Patch Rating 4 x6
Spellcasting Focus, Health (Bonded Foci) Rating 1
Sustaining Focus, Health (Bonded Foci) Rating 4
Throwing Syringe x10
Tool Kit (Disguise)

Concept is a bounty hunter magician with a wounder healer complex and a few areas of focus:
1: Decreasing Attributes/Incapacitated: Maybe went overboard with number of spells, but the selection covers typical dump stats to select the best for incapacitation. This can be maintained, or after the target is incapacitated, character can use toxins to actually knock them out. If Needles doesn't have a way to decrease attributes enough to get to 0, she can resort to partnering with spirit or Flinging Narcoject syringes.
2: Con/Facing: A skillset to make a convincing argument to get past security with a reliable story with someone who may not be able to move /speak. (Con, Impersonation, Etiquette, Disguise, etc.). I took Negotiation so this character can double as a face, but if in a group with a truer face, it may not be necessary.
3. Spirits: Having trouble deciding between Obeah and Shinto for traditions. I like plant spirits a lot and their counterspelling abilities, but decided to go with Obeah to get Spirits of Man in the Health category and non-possession tradition task spirits to eventually make toxins and forge documents for the character. Spirits of Man can cast sustained spells (character has a lot of them) , and bound spirits can help aid sorcery temporarily sustain spells if need. If nothing else, as a not combat-focused character, she can still bring some muscle if needed.


 Though after going the process and recently trying to make a useful alchemist, this kind of character type might be adaptable with some alchemical features. (Perhaps shifting to Shinto tradition for Plant spirits to help with counterspelling, and shifting counterspelling skills into alchemy.  Heal, Enabler, and Fling could be alchemical spells. I would probably get an alchemical focus over a health spellcasting one, and may not need a sustaining focus with enough bound spirits).


As always, I appreciate feedback and ideas on strengthening the character!

[FST_Gemstar]

Having some touch spell issues, so I did a little reworking.

Basically got rid of Negotiation for Alchemy. Switched the spell focus to an alchemy focus.  Made some spells alchemical. This left me short a little cash/karma so had to cut back on some gear.

I am finding what I like least about alchemy is the double rolling, once to make a preperation and once again to cast. it dillutes a spell (in order to not face drain in more serious situations) which I don't mind so much, but I think it is clunkier/makes prep time more tedious for game play. It's like sprites.

]
== Info ==
Street Name: Needles
Name: Unnamed Character
Movement: 4/8
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Human
Composure: 9
Judge Intentions: 11
Lift/Carry: 5 (30 kg/20 kg)
Memory: 5
Nuyen: 31000

== Priorities ==
Metatype: E(0) - Human
Attributes: C(2) - 16 Attributes
Special: A(4) - Magician or Technomancer
Skills: B(3) - 36 Skills/5 Skill Groups
Resources: D(1) - 50,000¥

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 2
REA: 3
STR: 2
CHA: 6
INT: 5
LOG: 2
WIL: 3
EDG: 3
MAG: 6

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   6
Initiative:                8 + 1d6
Rigger Initiative:         8 + 1d6
Astral Initiative:         10 + 2d6
Matrix AR Initiative:      8 + 1d6
Matrix Cold Initiative:    5 + DP + 3d6
Matrix Hot Initiative:     5 + DP + 4d6
Physical Damage Track:     10
Stun Damage Track:         10

== Limits ==
Physical:                  4
Mental:                    4
Social:                    7
Astral:                    7

== Active Skills ==
Alchemy                    : 6 [Health]             Pool: 15 (17)
Assensing                  : 1 [Aura Reading]       Pool: 6 (
Binding                    : 6 [Spirits of Man]     Pool: 12 (14)
Con                        : 5                      Pool: 11
Counterspelling            : 3                      Pool: 9
Disguise                   : 3                      Pool: 8
Etiquette                  : 2 [Corporate]          Pool: 8 (10)
Impersonation        :5                             Pool: 11
Perception                 : 4 [Visual]             Pool: 9 (11)
Performance                : 5                      Pool: 11
Sneaking                   : 1 [Urban]                     Pool: 5
Spellcasting               : 6 [Manipulation]       Pool: 12 (14)
Summoning                  : 6 [Spirits of Man]     Pool: 12 (14)


== Knowledge Skills ==
Biology                    : 2 [Parabotany]         Pool: 4 (6)
English                    : N                      Pool: 0
Hospital Procedures        : 3                      Pool: 8
Puppetry                   : 2                      Pool: 7
Sprawl Life                : 1 [Street Docs]        Pool: 6 (
Underworld                 : 3 [Kidnapping]         Pool: 8 (10)

== Qualities ==
Day Job (10 hrs)
Hawk Eye
Infirm II
Jack of All Trades Master of None
Magician
Mentor Spirit (Fire-Bringer)
Poisoner
Quick Healer
Weak Immune System

== Contacts ==
; Fixer (5, 2)
; Corporate Chemist (5, 2)
; Talismonger (3, 1)


== Spells ==
(Tradition: Obeah, Resist Drain with WIL + CHA (9))
Decrease [Attribute] (Alchemical) (CHA) DV: F-2
Decrease [Attribute] (Alchemical) (STR) DV: F-2
Decrease [Attribute] (Alchemical) (LOG) DV: F-2
Enabler (Alchemical)       DV: F-3
Fashion                    DV: F-1
Fling                      DV: F-2
Heal (Alchemical)                       DV: F-4
Increase Reflexes          DV: F
Levitate                   DV: F-2
Deflection (Alchemical)           DV: F+1

== Armor ==
Armor Clothing ("Nice")                       6
Armor Jacket                        12
Ballistic Mask                      2

== Weapons ==
Survival Knife
   Pool: 1        Accuracy: 5     DV: 4P       AP: -1    RC: 2
Throwing Syringe
   Pool: 0        Accuracy: 4     DV: 0P       AP: -1    RC: 2
Unarmed Attack
   Pool: 1        Accuracy: 4     DV: 2S       AP: -     RC: 2

== Commlink ==
MCT-3500 (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 3, FWL: 3)
   +Fake SIN Rating 4 [Fake License 4 (Medical License), Fake License 4 (Mage License), Fake License 4 (Bounty Hunter's License)]
   +Subvocal Mic
   +Micro-Transceiver
   +Sim Module

== Gear ==
Alchemical Focus (Bonded Foci) Rating 1
Backpack (Good)
Glasses Rating 4
   +Camera, Micro Rating 1
   +Flare Compensation
   +Image Link
   +Low Light
Magical Lodge Materials Rating 6
Medkit Rating 4
Narcoject x8
Reagents, per dram x300
Slap Patch, Stim Patch Rating 6 x3
Slap Patch, Stim Patch Rating 3 x3
Sustaining Focus, Health (Bonded Foci) Rating 4
Throwing Syringe x8
Tool Kit (Disguise)

[Hobbes]

What did your Group Skill points go into?

Alchemy Focus, not worth it.  Alchemy Skill 6 is overkill.  Alchemy 2 or 3 with a Contact specialization IMO.  Dice in Alchemy are a bad pay off.  15 dice averages 5 hits so you'll get 5 dice more when you activate the prep.  Or 12 Dice to average 4 hits to get 4 more dice when you activate the prep.  Basically you need 9 Dice of Alchemy to average one hit when you activate, very low pay off.

I would not use the Decrease Attribute spells as Preps, I'd cast those. 

Recharge Potency often costs more Drain then just making a new Alchemical Prep, never saw the point of that spell.  IMO.

Levitate, Improved Invisibility or other sneaky spell, Deflection, all make decent preps. 

[FST_Gemstar]

Good point with Recharge Potency (I was just getting excited to have a character with alchemy and spellcasting).

Skill group is Acting, I accidentally deleted impersonation on posting, re-added it.

The original character has everything spellcasting, but as a non melee magician, the character had no good way to make an unarmed attack necessary to cast decrease attribute against an unwilling target.

Pros for alchemy for me:
Preperations can be launched from range and not require the character to actually touch.
Preperations are stackable. As self sustaining spells, I could throw a second one at a target to finish the job if needed.

Pros for spellcasting:
Does not require overinvestment to try to maximize dice due to the mechanics of double rolling for a spell.
Because sustained preparations  have an a short time limit, more toxins/shock glove or something would be needed to require a target to stay knocked out.
As spells, spirits of Man could learn the decrease attribute and have a fairer chance getting a touch attack to cast the spell.

[Hobbes]

The original character has everything spellcasting, but as a non melee magician, the character had no good way to make an unarmed attack necessary to cast decrease attribute against an unwilling target.

Pros for alchemy for me:
Preperations can be launched from range and not require the character to actually touch.
Preperations are stackable. As self sustaining spells, I could throw a second one at a target to finish the job if needed.

Are you sure Preps stack?  I wouldn't let an Increase Attribute spell stack with another Increase Attribute spell, don't know why the Decrease Attribute spells would stack.  It's possible I'm letting old editions color my recollection though as I don't specifically remember the 5th edition wording for those spells.   

[FST_Gemstar]

Good question. I am not seeing anything that they don't, but that's not a good reason. For me, Increase Attributes would be limited by Augmented maximums, and subsequent spells would require higher force levels to cast and would be harder to increase the attribute further. Decreasing attributes don't face those problems. So I think it would work. It actually might make a case to target Willpower for many characters, defenders resist with Attribute + Willpower, you hit two defending attributes at the same time. I think you can still only use one preparation per combat turn, so it can't be so instantaneous.

[FST_Gemstar]

Another possible issue:

pg 305 of core, Step 4 in alchemy,

"Command triggers are the only triggers preparation with healing spells can have."

I feel like this may be intended to be Health spells, but as written, literally healing spells may give some leeway.

 Flinging preparations, getting the target to continue touching the the preparation on their pass, and then using a simple action command trigger on your next pass seems like a tough proposal.

[Hobbes]

In this case I'm reasonably certain Healing means Healing.  Not "Health". 

[FST_Gemstar]

Just did some re-reading. Increase Attribute specifically notes "each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time." Decrease Attribute doesn't have such a clause...

[Hobbes]

Even in games that make an effort to clarify stacking rules things can get cloudy.  I'd clear it with your GM first.  TBH there are little alarm bells going off in my head around letting Decrease Attribute Spells stack.  Seems to me even a high Willpower NPC could be taken out in a couple hits that way.

Make a dozen preps.  Everyone in the group buys alchemist gloves.  First action pass everyone Flings/Throws/Shoves a Decrease Willpower prep.  Seems like a good way to end a boss fight almost instantly given that Unarmed and Thrown Weapon skills are pretty common on the combat monkey builds.  Not that boss fights last long, but they usually get a couple actions.

As a GM I'd probably say no as there really isn't a counter to insty take down unless I'm prepared to look my players in the eye and say "Yes every Important NPC in the game has a 7 Willpower, why?"

[FST_Gemstar]

It does seem murky, and it isn't necessarily required.In my mind the mage is doing the work, but yes, handing off a preparation to a throwing or unarmed expert does make stacking seem overpowered. 

Defenses to such strategy:
High Willpower - Spell Defense
Counterspelling - Spell Defense
Plain High Defense - Chance of being touched reduced
Disenchanting - Rare and not very effective, could potentially nerf the effect of the spell enough to render it useless


Risk of strategy:
Requires several good dice rolls against - Preparation with 6 potency (high alchemy). Fling to at least graze (spellcasting for caster vs a potentially higher defense test). Preparation unleashed (tops 12 dice vs Willpower + Attribute + potentially counterspelling). This is just one attempt. It is possible that any step  here has a reasonable chance of failure and that would require a redo, probably some stun damage due to drain, and the enemy having a lot of opportunity to attack. Even with success, the it may only reduce an attribute by 1, requiring more repetitions.
Making lots of preps - This character could be more optimized to resist Drain, but as she stands, she probably can't get through a lot of high enough potency preparations without needing to take time to rest (because really, unless she gets potency 6, these preps are not very useful), risking the potency of the high potency preps to time (making even the Potency 6 ones potentially less useful). I don't think this playstyle is for just knocking out anyone, but more of a con/targeted knockout. It's after you do your legwork and prep, you know who you are going after, and you plan for it. A surprise fight or even a boss that wasn't prepped for is not going to be taken down this way. 
One preparation per combat turn: So preps can't be piled out rapid fire, so even if things did stack, it would take several turns and hence multiple passes for the enemy, giving them plenty of opportunity to fight it out.

Possible fairer rulings:
No stacking
Decreased Attributes aren't used as part of the spell defense tests, their regular rating is used (to prevent exponential stacking)
Any meaningful background count really puts a damper on this strategy, so it's ok for a GM to ramp it up bit if needed.