[adzling]

Excellent post Reaver, thanks for that.

Now imagine that insanity propagated into the urban ghettoes of 2076 and you have your picture of future-dystopia.

[Kincaid]

If you look at periods of urban population growth--late 19th cen Europe for example--you generally have some sort of agricultural crisis driving migration to the cities.  While I could see some sort of Grapes of Wrath riff taking place in the Sixth World ("I hear Ares is hiring in Detroit..."), getting to Seattle is pretty tricky for displaced persons given its geography.

[Reaver]

Not to mention the "Enemy at the Gates" siege mentality during the early part of the north American break-up.

Why go to Seattle, when they could be the next warzone?

[Beta]

But when the NAN were being created, there would have been a lot of displaced persons, and enough may have tried Seattle.  And later on, with all the poverty and unemployment, just the rumour that there were none in Seattle could have driven people there (who may not have been able to afford to leave again).

[Tarislar]

I think Vitas pretty much says it all really.

That stuffed reversed population growth back 1/2 a century or more, IIRC.

[Reaver]

I think Vitas pretty much says it all really.

That stuffed reversed population growth back 1/2 a century or more, IIRC.

a little more then that..

Remember, VITAS was treatable. Very expensive to treat with very rare drugs, but treatable.

So who got saved? The rich. Who has a low birth rate? The rich.
Who died off in droves? The poor. To the point that some countries (like Morocco?) were almost completely depopulated. However, the poor also have high birth rates.

So what you end up with is wealthy countries having the least deaths, and those deaths confined to the poorest class. While in poor countries, you have massive death with only a few surviving.
During the VITAS outbreaks, cities either saved or killed you, depending on your countries supply of medicine. In wealthy countries, being in a city meant quick emergency response. However in poor countries that didn't have treatments, cities became killing grounds as you now jammed so many hosts for the virus to pass to in a geographically small area.

And don't forget to use the numbers from 1985. (SP was published in 1988/89 or so, and the numbers just continue from there).

No, I think the bigger killers in Seattle and North America where the Nights of Rage. No one REALLY knows how many meta humans died in those nights of fire.... And my guess is its a lot higher then the 'official' numbers.


Or, a 3rd possibility.

The info we are using itself is a '3rd wall' document. Meaning we, as players, are seeing a document from inside the fiction, and not a document ABOUT the fiction.
(something they do like to do....)
And, who compiles those stats in game? What advantages do they have for putting a spin on it? Where are they getting their info? What are their accuracy rating?

[Medicineman]

>>>  (like Morocco?)
I remember Madagascar
Nevertheless , some Guys over at Dumpschock did the math (Kudos to those Nerds )
and estimated a worldpopolation of 6.0 to 6.5 Billion People (in 2075)
But please don't ask me for Details, i'm happy that I can remember the general Numbers
The spread of Metaraces in the Run Harder (Schattenläufer) startled me at first but once You get used to them they seem plausible

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Crimsondude]

The numbers have been criticized in the Seattle books. The figures are generally only SINners, and not necessarily corporate citizens. The syndicates protect census takers even in the parts of the Barrens they control (political-criminal-corporate circlejerk), but taking it all into account I'd just assume it's the number of eligible voters (The Supreme Court just ruled that the census must count everyone, but the SIN/SINless divide makes it clear that's not even remotely likely in the UCAS), or in other words, adult UCAS SINners. The real population is "whatever necessary for your game." I rather like the idea that even the published numbers are unreliable because they are in-character and that seems to be the only thing you can be certain isn't in Shadowrun anymore (because then it gets into people getting mad about that).

I actually underestimated the damage VITAS did.  I read on the Shadowrun wiki that the first strain killed off billions of people worldwide, with the second strain killing off close to another billion in the 2020s.  Too bad though, because having overpopulation is a staple in a dystopian future.

VITAS 1 killed 25% of the world's population. VITAS 2 killed 10% of the world's population. That doesn't take into account collateral deaths from other diseases or effects from VITAS breaking down civilization. Additionally, that doesn't account for all of the non-fatal cases that could have produced permanent effects.

There is no more "welfare" or social services network, those died out long ago to Corporate greed and government insolvency. There is no universal health care (Canada) or Obamacare (US).

Not necessarily in the UCAS (though this is true in Seattle), since adoption of Canada's welfare system is why the CAS seceded in the first place.

[Reaver]

@Medicineman:
Very well could have been Madigasscar. Knew it was a North Africain country, but didn't know exactly which one.

@CrimsonDude:
Yea, when Canada and the US joined they adopted the Canada welfare system. But I have a feeling they abandoned it right quick. Here's why (coming from a Canadian).

The Canadian welfare system has 2 contributors. The federal government, and the Provincal government. Together these 2 governments assign funds to cover the following ministries.
Health
Education
Social services and development
Under just those 3 headings are a host of other sub-ministries as well. But we will look at the big 3.

On a Federal level HES funding accounts for 63% of all Federal revenue.
On a Provincal level, it gets harder to find as the orovincal governments play 'hide the buck' a lot more. However for the Province of BC (my home province) HES funding takes up 85% of the provincial revenue. (Healthcare alone is 50%).

And no. Healthcare is NOT free in Canada. I pay a $276 PER month 'fee' for my 'Medical Service Plan' that I don't use as I pay $375 to a private insurer for medical. (Due to being out of country for up to 11 months a year).

So really, in the province of BC, the cost of just Healthcare is 50% of the provincal GDP + the MSP monthly payments of 2.25million people paying an additional $69 a month minimum.


Now apply that to the SR world and the upheaval they went through. I seriously doubt the 'welfare state' survived.

[Medicineman]

>> @Medicineman:
Very well could have been Madigasscar. Knew it was a North Africain country, but didn't know exactly which one.

Or maybe both locations ? ( I didn't mean to correct you )
Vitas , I guess, ravaged especially severely in Africa ( and maybe Asia too ? )

With a Sunday Morning's Dance
Medicineman

[Crimsondude]

On a Federal level HES funding accounts for 63% of all Federal revenue.
On a Provincal level, it gets harder to find as the orovincal governments play 'hide the buck' a lot more. However for the Province of BC (my home province) HES funding takes up 85% of the provincial revenue. (Healthcare alone is 50%).

That's similar to how Medicare is funded. It's a mess.

>> @Medicineman:
Very well could have been Madigasscar. Knew it was a North Africain country, but didn't know exactly which one.

Or maybe both locations ? ( I didn't mean to correct you )
Vitas , I guess, ravaged especially severely in Africa ( and maybe Asia too ? )

• 450 million dead in India.
• 11 million of 14 million dead in Madagascar.
• 550 million dead in sub-Sahara Africa, estimated (which would be a higher rate than Madagascar's). No one bothered to count.
• India fared better than the U.S., which was depopulated by 1/3. So 100+ million dead just from VITAS.

One other thing to note is that VITAS 2 came along around the same time as Goblinization. The 10% global fatality rate includes people who became orks and trolls but who were murdered and had their deaths covered up as VITAS-related, like the real Kenneth Brackhaven.

[Sterling]

>> @Medicineman:
Very well could have been Madigasscar. Knew it was a North Africain country, but didn't know exactly which one.

Or maybe both locations ? ( I didn't mean to correct you )
Vitas , I guess, ravaged especially severely in Africa ( and maybe Asia too ? )

With a Sunday Morning's Dance
Medicineman

Just an FYI, but Madagascar isn't a North African Country.  It's an island in the Indian Ocean off the East Coast of Africa.

[Senko]

I have to say it makes sense to me you have roughly 60 years of population growth immigration etc for Seattle vs massive pandemics, lower quality living, dealing with the fact there might REALLY be a monster in the closet eyeing not just the kids but the whole family for a meal and that's not even considering the paranormal creatures roaming around that might want to do the same. Given that having Seattle almost tripple in population just counting the official citizens seems reasonable. As for dystopian sprawl as has been said this is a world where its very much you pay or you go hungry. I see it more like Robocop the population per square foot isn't overwhealming but anyone with money for investment isn't looking to go in and upgrade the plumbing, housing, health care etc they're looking to bulldoze the lot, evict those living there and build a shiny new arcology for their valuable workers. A lot of people are going to be living in a one room apartment bed, cooking, maybe if they're middle class a bathroom and hearing the neighbours through the walls because anything better costs a fortune. I've been looking at property recently to buy my own place and the difference based on location is immense. I can get a one bedroom, one bathroom, one car park space place around where I am currently for around 400-500 thousand, if I try to get the same anywhere near Sydney where I actually work it almost doubles to 700-800 thousand. Here you have a city with no social services, no care for the average  person so spending a huge fortune on a place to live makes sense, when most people can't afford that there's no new building so people are living in squalor or arcologies.

Then we can also look at the qualities if you want a dystopian future. A medium lifestyle is 5,000 nuyen a month, a 40 hour job is 5,000 so its get married and save as much as you can from their income till one of you has to stay home to take care of the kids, live a medium lifestyle with no money put aside for emergencies/the future or live a low lifestyle and save some of your income.

[Wakshaani]

40 hour workweek? You slacker. You'll never get ahead with a part-time attitude like that!

[Senko]

You joke but a lot of jobs nowaday's (dr, lawyer, etc) consider you part time if your working less than 60. However the only way to increase work hours/pay with the mechanics is to be famous so 40 hours it is.