[DragginSPADE]

In another thread, http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=24052.0, I brought up how mechanically efficient the Mentor Spirit quality is for magicians.  This got me thinking that I hardly ever see a thread about making a magician that doesn't advise taking a Mentor Spirit.  Every thread on the Character Creation and Critique section does so as far as I can tell.

This got me wondering, does anyone make actual true blue Hermetic Mages anymore?  As in, Hermetic tradition, not beholden to a totem Mentor Spirit and knows how to bind as well as summon spirits?  Personally it's my favorite flavor of magic in Shadowrun but has the seductive allure of pure mechanical efficiency made them extinct at your table?

Secondary question:  For those taking totems Mentor Spirits, how often have the roleplaying disadvantages of them come up, if at all at your table? 

[Beta]

My game has a shaman with Cat as mentor spirit and the built in disadvantage is pervasive.  Doesn't always show up directly, but impacts how he goes about things.

I looked through the mentor spirits at one point and those disadvantages that I could reasonably compare to negative qualities came out around 9-10 points.  So I don't so much see mentor spirits as being more effective as a way to get another ten points of positive and negative qualities, without breaking the normal limits.  I'm mentally playing with ways to offer similar package deals to non awakened, but so far haven't found a solution I like yet.

[Nightmare]

I've a few players who run the combat and detective hermetics and when I do play I magic user, I go for the mage too. Thing is, most of my players, and myself, have played SR as far back as 1E. Even the newest one that plays a mage in the group came into SR with 3E. I think that the current mentor spirit advantages are too good for many pcs from not going for the extra power instead of playing the more interesting mage. Of course, I also think that newer players are more likely to approach character creation as power gamers instead of going for a weaker more enjoyable character. That's just my view/exp and it's not really worth much.

[Nightmare]

Bloody double post...

[Herr Brackhaus]

Your view, indeed; "the more interesting mage" and "a weaker more enjoyable character" couldn't be much more subjective if you ask me.

Unless you have been following Shadowrun since before 4th Edition or have read most of the novels chances are you won't have a full depth of understanding of what mentor spirits, or totems as they used to be and in some cases still are called, really represent.

Mechanically speaking, they are a bargain for the most part; some have rather crippling disadvantages, others much less so, and they all depend on GMs and players both using them for what they can be, namely role-playing tools.

That being said, I think it's worth pointing out that in universe the unified magical theory has elaborated upon mentor spirits especially in terms of their nature. No longer are they only animal totems the shamans of old would know, but abstract emotions and ideals; anger, heroism, trickery, stubbornness. These are just a few examples of a paradigm shift in the theory of "totems".

Ultimately, I do agree with the sentiment that many characters in the creation subforum here go for the optimalization approach, but I'm certainly not one to think that lessens the enjoyability of such a character in any way, shape, or form. Taste is subjective, after all.

As for disadvantages; at my table it is something players expect to come up and that they actively embrace as part of the character just like any other quality.

[Nightmare]

When I mentioned the "weaker more enjoyable" characters I wasn't talking about just magic users but all the archetypes. As for the mage being more interesting to me has to do with the idea of running a character who views magic as science and formuli. I like that because it offers a potential for some explanation other than "feeling the magic". Though, I do enjoy watching a pc shaman and a pc mage rp together.

I do think that the totems were much more equal in thier advantages/disadvantages in 2E and 3E. The current mentor spirits, just seem to be more about advantages. But it's all subjective and depends on how the GM runs the game. You get a good GM who brings up situations in the game that brings about rping the disadvantages of the mentor spirits then it's more equaling and fun.

[HobDobson]

This got me wondering, does anyone make actual true blue Hermetic Mages anymore?  As in, Hermetic tradition, not beholden to a totem Mentor Spirit and knows how to bind as well as summon spirits?  Personally it's my favorite flavor of magic in Shadowrun but has the seductive allure of pure mechanical efficiency made them extinct at your table?

My current tabletop character is a Chaos Mage without a mentor spirit, who has the binding skill ... but hasn't bound a spirit yet. Starting off with "street scum" BP and cash has made binding too costly until jobs started paying much better than they cost. That's just life. Thematically, not having banishing experience didn't make sense for a mage with the spirit bane quality. Might as well just advance the whole skill group though, binding included, in case it becomes needed.

As far as mentor spirits are concerned, the character's personality just doesn't fit many of the recommended mentors. Or the benefits/disadvantages are unfavorable, so it wouldn't make sense for either party.

So I've ended up with a character that isn't optimized for the system mechanics, but is (I hope) well-placed with regard to the setting and the rest of the cast. Some folks would find that boring: he can't throw lightning bolts at someone's head, but if you like the idea of a kid who can make 11k while the team racks up a 35k tab at the same nightclub? 

[Tarislar]

This got me wondering, does anyone make actual true blue Hermetic Mages anymore?  As in, Hermetic tradition, not beholden to a totem Mentor Spirit and knows how to bind as well as summon spirits?  Personally it's my favorite flavor of magic in Shadowrun but has the seductive allure of pure mechanical efficiency made them extinct at your table?

Secondary question:  For those taking totems Mentor Spirits, how often have the roleplaying disadvantages of them come up, if at all at your table?

I did create a Logic/Hermatic that was also a Doctor for double healing.
But even then, I took the Mentor from the Bandages suppliment,  Healer/GreatMother,  something like that since it added to the feel.

We always use the Negatives if they come up.
I had a Dragonslayer that wouldn't lie to the clients.
And a Peacemaker that would role before each combat started, luckily he had high stats & only failed once & just used non-lethal spells.

[Blue Rose]

There are many true hermetics left.

Many of these true hermetics have mentor spirits.

This is because what it means to be a true hermetic has changed over time.  And that is not a bad thing.

A 'true hermetic' is going to have a very different relationship with their mentor spirit than a 'true shaman' or a 'true Christian theurge' or a 'true Qabbalist.'  They're still 'true.'

However, the hermetic method has very rational and pragmatic, with few idealistic qualms that would prevent them from taking a mentor spirit now that they have the ability to do so from their own methods.  There was never a moral refusal to take a mentor spirit, like there was a moral refusal for shamans to bind spirits; there was an inability because their approach to magic did not function in that manner at the time.

[Coyote]

There are many true hermetics left.

Many of these true hermetics have mentor spirits.

This is because what it means to be a true hermetic has changed over time.  And that is not a bad thing.

A 'true hermetic' is going to have a very different relationship with their mentor spirit than a 'true shaman' or a 'true Christian theurge' or a 'true Qabbalist.'  They're still 'true.'

However, the hermetic method has very rational and pragmatic, with few idealistic qualms that would prevent them from taking a mentor spirit now that they have the ability to do so from their own methods.  There was never a moral refusal to take a mentor spirit, like there was a moral refusal for shamans to bind spirits; there was an inability because their approach to magic did not function in that manner at the time.

Nailed it.
The OP's version of "true hermetic" just means a Hermetic the way that they used to be played in the early editions. That is not any longer the only "true way" to play a Hermetic mage. A Hermetic mage would have a different view of what is a "Bear mentor" than a Shamanistic mage would, but that does not make a Hermetic mage who takes advice from a logical Bear spirit any less of a "true Hermetic" than one who refuses to deal with Mentor spirits.

As for their pervasiveness, well, they are a good bonus. The disadvantages are generally minor, in that you usually take a Mentor spirit whose disadvantage naturally fits with how you were going to play the character. But is this really a bad thing? It adds another dimension to the character's roleplaying, keeps the player from breaking character in some ways just for temporary advantage, etc. This generally helps with the storytelling in a campaign.

[Reaver]

Dunno.... I am kinda torn on Mentors.

I personally don't use them when creating a mage, as I find the hinderances that come with them a little too.... conforming for my tastes.

And as a GM, I have noticed 2 things very consistantly with mentors:
1: player who use Mentors, ALWAYS remember their bonus dice. And ALWAYS forget the penialties.
2: enforcing the penailties from a given mentor usually annoys/upsets the player.

So, yea... too many (IMO) are looking at mentirs and seeing dice, and NOT seeing them as what they are, a balancing act.....


However, I have had SOME players who play up their Mentors masterfully..... so, yea.

[DragginSPADE]

There are many true hermetics left.

Many of these true hermetics have mentor spirits.

This is because what it means to be a true hermetic has changed over time.  And that is not a bad thing.

A 'true hermetic' is going to have a very different relationship with their mentor spirit than a 'true shaman' or a 'true Christian theurge' or a 'true Qabbalist.'  They're still 'true.'

However, the hermetic method has very rational and pragmatic, with few idealistic qualms that would prevent them from taking a mentor spirit now that they have the ability to do so from their own methods.  There was never a moral refusal to take a mentor spirit, like there was a moral refusal for shamans to bind spirits; there was an inability because their approach to magic did not function in that manner at the time.

Nailed it.
The OP's version of "true hermetic" just means a Hermetic the way that they used to be played in the early editions. That is not any longer the only "true way" to play a Hermetic mage. A Hermetic mage would have a different view of what is a "Bear mentor" than a Shamanistic mage would, but that does not make a Hermetic mage who takes advice from a logical Bear spirit any less of a "true Hermetic" than one who refuses to deal with Mentor spirits.

As for their pervasiveness, well, they are a good bonus. The disadvantages are generally minor, in that you usually take a Mentor spirit whose disadvantage naturally fits with how you were going to play the character. But is this really a bad thing? It adds another dimension to the character's roleplaying, keeps the player from breaking character in some ways just for temporary advantage, etc. This generally helps with the storytelling in a campaign.

Okay, please get past me saying "True Hermetic" in the OP and focus on the questions I was asking.  And yes, I AM a grognard who played 1-3 ed, and would you like to hear how I had to walk to school uphill both ways in the snow? 

As you say, they ARE a good mechanical bonus and the mechanical disadvantage is usually somewhat minor.  So let me rephrase my question:  How many players do you see take totems Mentor Spirits because they want to explore roleplaying a hermetic mage who filters his view of magic through the lens of a primal spirit and lives by its guidance, vs how many go "Oooh, five karma for bonus dice, shiny!"   

[DragginSPADE]

Dunno.... I am kinda torn on Mentors.

I personally don't use them when creating a mage, as I find the hinderances that come with them a little too.... conforming for my tastes.

And as a GM, I have noticed 2 things very consistantly with mentors:
1: player who use Mentors, ALWAYS remember their bonus dice. And ALWAYS forget the penialties.
2: enforcing the penailties from a given mentor usually annoys/upsets the player.

So, yea... too many (IMO) are looking at mentirs and seeing dice, and NOT seeing them as what they are, a balancing act.....


However, I have had SOME players who play up their Mentors masterfully..... so, yea.

Yeah.  If I can ever get into a game again I suspect this is what I'll see.  I've played two magicians in long term campaigns years ago, one a mage and one a norse flavored shaman who followed Shark.  Both of them I enjoyed roleplaying in very different ways so I'm not dissing mentor spirits at all.  But I love hermetics primarily for their rational view of magic, trying to seek a complete understanding of magic and the following of a totem mentor spirit by a hermetic has always seemed very odd to me. 

[FST_Gemstar]

Sometimes mentor spirits choose the magicians. A Hermetically trained magician may not be willing to give up her worldview and a mentor spirit may not require it, but nonetheless, a mentor spirit wants to be part of the plan for the magician.

I think the drawbacks of mentor spirits can be pretty harsh. I think mechanically, they are geared to more charisma/shamanistic based magicians due to the majority of negative effects test being a Charisma + Willpower test. Mechanically, "hermetics" may have a tougher time with their relationship to a mentor spirit, while "shamans" may find their relationship much smoother. This may factor in a little bit to an older style of mentor spirit relations.

[Blue Rose]

Dunno.... I am kinda torn on Mentors.

I personally don't use them when creating a mage, as I find the hinderances that come with them a little too.... conforming for my tastes.

And as a GM, I have noticed 2 things very consistantly with mentors:
1: player who use Mentors, ALWAYS remember their bonus dice. And ALWAYS forget the penialties.
2: enforcing the penailties from a given mentor usually annoys/upsets the player.

So, yea... too many (IMO) are looking at mentirs and seeing dice, and NOT seeing them as what they are, a balancing act.....


However, I have had SOME players who play up their Mentors masterfully..... so, yea.

The drawback is one of my biggest considerations with a mentor.  If I take Dragonslayer as a mentor, I know I'm bound to that level of honesty or I'm gonna tick Dragonslayer off.

That said, there's nothing that necessarily says having a mentor spirit is necessarily voluntary.  I've seen someone run a Christian theurge who less-than-voluntarily switched mentors from Dragonslayer (as an aspect of St. George) to the Seducer (as an aspect of... well, you can guess; probably would have been The Adversary had Hard Targets been out) for background reasons, and any time he made those charisma+willpower rolls, that was an active fight against his mentor.

Okay, please get past me saying "True Hermetic" in the OP and focus on the questions I was asking.  And yes, I AM a grognard who played 1-3 ed, and would you like to hear how I had to walk to school uphill both ways in the snow? 

As you say, they ARE a good mechanical bonus and the mechanical disadvantage is usually somewhat minor.  So let me rephrase my question:  How many players do you see take totems Mentor Spirits because they want to explore roleplaying a hermetic mage who filters his view of magic through the lens of a primal spirit and lives by its guidance, vs how many go "Oooh, five karma for bonus dice, shiny!"   

I've never seen anyone take a mentor spirit without it informing their roleplaying.

While yes, many of them pick the totem for mechanical reasons, either the choice rolls back into the character, or the character rolls back into the choice in some way.

I've never seen someone take a totem without making a character who can live with their drawbacks.  Those who take Dragonslayer bring characters who have that honest streak so they can live with those oaths, those who take Bear have that protective streak so they can live with Mama Bear mode.  Those who can't deal with Mama Bear mode don't take Bear.

And the names of the mentors vary from tradition to tradition.  Dragonslayer to the Shaman is St. George to the Christian theurge.  Chaos to the Chaos Mage is Loki to the Norse mage.  The Great Mother to a Wicca may be the Virgin Mary to a Christian theurge, and may be the spirit of your great, great, great, great grandmother watching over you to a Shinto priest.  What it is to a hermetic is for you to decide as a hermetic.

Last time I saw a hermetic with a mentor spirit, that hermetic was also Catholic (though not a Christian theurge) and had Fire-bringer (St. Thomas Aquinas) as a mentor spirit.

All that said, hermetics are rationalists.  Mentor spirits, at this point in the timeline, are objective truth.  A hermetic denying mentor spirits on the grounds of rationalism at this point are like a flat Earth skeptic today.