[FST_Gemstar]

Just had an idea about an aspected conjurer decker who channels a spirit to take over his body while he is VR. Somehow I don't think it would be legal, but I am having trouble finding where it wouldn't be, as it is the conjurer who is going VR, while the spirit deals with the meat world.

I assume the character would use his own stats in VR, while all of the stat replacement/modifiers will affect his body when possessed, and of course the the spirit would use its own mental/special attributes. And of course it would cost a spirit service to give control over his body to the spirit (though I am unclear if character can reclaim his body at anytime and if it would also cost a service...)

I am digging the idea because of the possibility of having a VR decker who has a body that can actually move around (if not jacked into something) and do some helpful things in the meat while simultaneously active in VR. This is the most legal issue I think, whether or not the decker can use their own VR initiative while in VR while the spirit uses its own initiative while possessing the decker's body. I feel like it would be nice, and it would certainly ease some of the action economy issues of channeling, but I can see how it is encroaching on the maybe not. It also allows for some more RP opportunity. 

Before I start to stat this, is there any other blatantly illegal things I am missing?

[firebug]

It -could- work, and I see the logic...

Only with Channeling could it be possible, I think, as that allows you to still have your own actions.  Normal possession wouldn't allow the cheval to still take their own actions, mental or physical.

Probably best done with the Qabbalism tradition, since it's LOG-based and Task Spirits would be useful for this, too, I think..  And the user would need a fair amount of skills...

It'd be tough to build, as you'd also need MAG/RES, need to initiate, and couldn't really use any augmentations...  But I think you could pull it off with Sum to 10.

I wanna hear some other people weigh in, because this does sound like a unique, creative build that wouldn't really be overpowered in any way, and would likely be very playable.

[Jack_Spade]

Is it possible? I'd say yes. The power of this build comes from being a decker augmented by mage spells, not that his body can move.
And you aren't the first with that idea.

Check out the Stormy Waters threat in the pbp forum. Circles of Power had a character called Solo with exactly this concept (although this was a prime runner with Sum to 14 build)

Edit: Here is a link http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=20525.msg368138#msg368138

[FST_Gemstar]

Thanks folks -

Jack_Spade: Not claiming I am the first person to think of magical deckers (I've seen and made some already), but I haven't seen a Channeling Decker (and don't claim to be the first who thought of one either, just haven't seen any builds). An aspected conjurer can't go the buff spell route, it would play differently than most magical deckers. In Priority/Sum-to-ten (big difference from a sum-to-fourteen prime runner) I think being a full magician going the channeling route is too much to squeeze, and a full magician would have those buff spells that would probably trump channeling anyway.

My thought would be to:
Priority:
Meta: E
Attributes: A
Magic: D, Aspected Conjurer
Skills: B
Resources: C

I think it's actually ok to keep Magic rather low (starting at 2 or 3, and not really having to go past 3 even the long game), Part of the perks of that is that it makes channeling a value added. Ex. I can summon a Force 4 spirit, and on its own will have mediocore stats, but if is is channelled into a character that already has so physical stats, those +2 to those stats actually may be stronger than that Force 4 spirit.  Summoning Force 4 spirits with Magic 2 is doable, and the drain is still manageable even if physical. Also, when channeling, characters get wound modifier reductions so taking a beating from drain or otherwise wouldn't matter too much.

I was actually thinking going a non-possession tradition route. The character only works fully after initiating into channeling anyway, where you get the choice then to summon a possessing or "regular" spirit. Picking a non-possession spirit gives more options then. I was debating between prioritizing a task spirit or a guardian spirit, and I kind of liked the guardian spirit idea better.  Here's  why:

Basically, at Force 4, all physical attributes of a guardian spirit are higher than my already relatively high Attribute A decker, Making that +2 across the board, and those +2s are going to make the possessed character have higher attributes than the spirit would have. Part of the weakness of channeling is that you often depower a spirit by channeling it, but it a build like this, spirit and character benefit from the channeling.
I like the idea of just keeping a weapon for the spirit may know how to use but the character doesn't.
I like spirits with counterspelling.
And if I am keeping a spirit at Force 4( or 6 tops), A Logic focused character like a decker is going to be able to handle a lot of logic-based technical skills with minimal investment when not possessed.

But Task spirits are awesome...

For Tradition. I was thinking Sioux (Intuition) or Norse (Logic). Both have Guardian spirits as well as other spirits I like.

It's definitely not a super efficient build, but I think it may be fun to play.

I'll throw up some stats soon.

[FST_Gemstar]

Here is what I have so far, and there is still some wiggle/things to drop if needed:

Karma: 10 on Strength, 8 on Nuyen, 22 on Positive Qualities, 10 on Magic, -25 on NQs (not super well thought out yet)
Nuyen: After 'ware and a deck (w/agent), still have 26k+ to spend on basic runner gear. I could drop the Increased Myelination for some more cash without missing it (just thought it would be fun for a VR decker).
Tradition: Norse

Assumption: Mental stat boosting drugs would affect characters "mind" when in VR.

Overall: Character starts off as a "good-enough" albeit squishy decker. Not going to win any decker of the year awards but can handle difficulty in the moderate range. After initiating, that good enough decker is able to add a unique twist of capable VR hacking and the bonuses it comes with, while still being able to be on-site and offer spirit perks.

Notes:  Even without stat boosting 'ware, Narco + Psyche can get hacking pools into high-enough ranges. I decided to get some 'ware as it is less an opportunity cost for lower magic characters to lose a point, and having Noise reducing 'ware is very helpful for VR decker who isn't jacked in.

Growth: First 50 karma likely spent getting a few rank 1 skills, initiating twice (channeling and probably masking) and raising Magic to 3. Nuyen can be spent on a few more augmentations if the bigger bucks come in.
 

== Info ==
Street Name:
Name: Unnamed Character
Movement: 10/20
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Human
Composure: 8
Judge Intentions: 8
Lift/Carry: 5 (30 kg/20 kg)
Memory: 11
Nuyen: 26880

== Priorities ==
Metatype: E(0) - Human
Attributes: A(4) - 24 Attributes
Special: D(1) - Adept or Aspected Magician
Skills: B(3) - 36 Skills/5 Skill Groups
Resources: C(2) - 140,000¥

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 5
REA: 4
STR: 2
CHA: 3
INT: 5
LOG: 6
WIL: 5
EDG: 3
MAG: 2

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   5.38
Initiative:                9 + 1d6
Rigger Initiative:         9 + 1d6
Astral Initiative:         10 + 2d6
Matrix AR Initiative:      9 + 1d6
Matrix Cold Initiative:    5 + DP + 3d6
Matrix Hot Initiative:     5 + DP + 4d6
Physical Damage Track:     10
Stun Damage Track:         11

== Limits ==
Physical:                  4
Mental:                    8
Social:                    6
Astral:                    8

== Active Skills ==
Assensing                  : 1 [Aura Reading]       Pool: 6 (
Computer                   : 5                      Pool: 11
Electronic Warfare         : 6 [Sensor Operations] Pool: 12 (14)
Etiquette                  : 1 [Street]             Pool: 4 (6)
Hacking                    : 6 [Hosts]              Pool: 12 (14)
Hardware                   : 5                      Pool: 11
Perception                 : 2 [Visual]             Pool: 7 (9)
Pistols                    : 2 [Semi-Automatics]    Pool: 7 (9)
Sneaking                   : 4 [Urban]              Pool: 9 (11)
Software                   : 5                      Pool: 11
Summoning                  : 6 [Guardian Spirit]    Pool: 8 (10)

== Knowledge Skills ==
(Magical Tradition focused Language) : 3                      Pool: 8
Art                        : 2 [Digital]            Pool: 8 (10)
English                    : N                      Pool: 0
Magical Threats            : 1 [Blood Magic]        Pool: 7 (9)
News                       : 2 [Technology]         Pool: 7 (9)
Parazoology                : 2 [N. America]         Pool: 8 (10)
Shadow Community           : 4 [Rumours]            Pool: 9 (11)
Street Drugs               : 3                      Pool: 8

== Contacts ==
; Fixer (Drug focus) (4, 2)
; Talismonger (2, 1)

== Qualities ==
Addiction (Mild) (Psyche)
Addiction (Mild) (Zen)
Aspected Magician
Codeslinger (Hack on the Fly)
Impassive
Jack of All Trades Master of None
Overclocker
Perfect Time
Poor Self Control (Vindictive)
Prejudiced (Specific, Outspoken) (Technomancers)

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Antennae
Antennae
Antennae
Datajack
Increased Myelination
Narco

== Weapons ==
Unarmed Attack
   Pool: 4   Accuracy: 4   DV: 2S   AP: -   RC: 2

== Commlink ==
Little Hornet (ATT: 5, SLZ: 4, DP: 1, FWL: 1)
   +Agent Rating 4

[firebug]

Does it have to be basic priority build?  'Cause there'd be a great way to do it with Sum to 10, where you could have 6 MAG, the Conjuration skill group at 6, 4 Edge...   Your physical attributes would be low, but your spirit'd be giving them all +3, which would be fine.  Again I'd go for Qabbalism because, damn, having a spirit that you could use for Hardware to repair things, or Medicine to heal your allies?  Damn straight that's good.

The spread would be DCBCC, by the way.

[FST_Gemstar]

Does it have to be basic priority build?  'Cause there'd be a great way to do it with Sum to 10, where you could have 6 MAG, the Conjuration skill group at 6, 4 Edge...   Your physical attributes would be low, but your spirit'd be giving them all +3, which would be fine.  Again I'd go for Qabbalism because, damn, having a spirit that you could use for Hardware to repair things, or Medicine to heal your allies?  Damn straight that's good.

The spread would be DCBCC, by the way.

That looks doable and some more edge is nice. It would also allow for some binding too. I still feel like I would want to invest in some 'ware, as a VR decker that isn't magically buffed  is going to have a lot of penalties to deal with. So if max magic is 5 then, I feel like a Magic 3 can get away with the channeling component as much as a Magic 5 character would. 28 skill points for the rest of the decking skills sounds tough... but if the character is going full channelor, a task or guardian spirit can have some other skills at the needed time.... 

Edit: I will also note, if going to be priority B (or A magic/E Meta), it may just be mechanically wiser to just be a full magician at this point, so the character could benefit from sprite channeling and spell/alchemical buffs and rituals. Aspected magicians I only find to be a real choice against full magicians when taken at priority D (except for B Sorcery for a slower build but a more metamagical/ritual character).

[firebug]

What penalties?  You can afford to have 18 dice hacking (specialization, Codeslinger, hotsim) with the build I suggested.  You really don't need 'ware at all.  Or do you mean in the physical world?  'Cause that's what the spirits are for.  And you can use drugs in the meantime if you really need it, but I doubt it.

With your skill points, you can have a 6 in Hacking, Cybercombat, Computer, and Electronic Warfare.  Software is very limited use, and you don't need Hardware at all because absolutely any time you'd need to do it, you can summon a task spirit with the skill to do it for you.  You could buy a few points of other skills with karma, but you don't need them...  In combat, you have spirits.  Before Channeling, just have them possess an enemy and then hide and do some hacking.  After, have them fight for you while you VR hack.  Done deal.

[Jack_Spade]

Hm, I just noticed something about the Zoroastrianism Tradition.
If you plan to go channeling anyway, you should think about getting Great Form Possession (Hard Targets p.134) as well.
Now Zoroastrianism has plant spirits in its portfolio and great form plant spirits can get regeneration if you manage to get four hits. And since you are sharing a single damage track you now have yourself regeneration.
Doesn't help your hacking skills, but you now have nothing to fear from dump shock or biofeedback anymore...

[FST_Gemstar]

Fire_Bug:
I was considering Noise penalties. I am envisioning perks of in a way being able to VR hack with VR initiative and bonuses while not being stuck to a jackpoint.

Your build is more spirit heavy, which definitely has its perks.

Jack_Spade:
Good call. There is some debate on this, but summoning a great form spirit is technically a ritual, requiring ritual spellcasting. By strict interpretation an aspected conjurer unfortunately couldn't do it. Both Sioux and Norse traditions have Plant spirits as well as Guardian Spirits (which I like). I think a Full magician as opposed to an aspected one could benefit from a strategy like this with Fire_Bug's char-gen allocations. 

[FancyDerek]

not in front of the books but...

If memory serves me correctly, Summon Greater is a contractual ritual.

Learning Tatoo magic for 5 karma allow you to use Artian(Tattooing) to cast Contractual Rituals.

It also allows some other thing with enchanting but since your an aspected conjurer you wouldn't be able to do those things.

If I remembered wrong and Summon Greater Spirit Form isn't contractual-nevermind.

[Bewilderbeast]

Yeah sadly there doesn't seem to be any way for aspected conjurers to take advantage of Invocation or Great Form Spirits.

I understand aspected conjurers aren't supposed to be like specialist mages in D&D. You're not a focused mage, you're a limited mage. But still, the application of some metamagics feels unnecessarily limiting. It seems like they rolled a lot of unnecessary stuff into ritual spellcasting in order to make ritual spellcasting more useful, and along the way had the unfortunate side-effect of screwing over aspected conjurers and alchemists.

[FST_Gemstar]

Yeah sadly there doesn't seem to be any way for aspected conjurers to take advantage of Invocation or Great Form Spirits.

I understand aspected conjurers aren't supposed to be like specialist mages in D&D. You're not a focused mage, you're a limited mage. But still, the application of some metamagics feels unnecessarily limiting. It seems like they rolled a lot of unnecessary stuff into ritual spellcasting in order to make ritual spellcasting more useful, and along the way had the unfortunate side-effect of screwing over aspected conjurers and alchemists.

I tend to be a strict rules interpreter in this situation, though I can be pushed over pretty easy about it.

There are some clauses, particularly for adepts, about replacing ritual spellcasting with another relevant skill (ex. like animal handling for attune animal) that could be applied (Summoning or Binding skill in this case). I just get nervous about inconsistent application, but  it's not like aspected magicians need any more limits. However, I can see aspected conjurers both having access to Great Form Spirits/Ally spirits (they are spirit magicians!) and not (they just don't have the breadth of magical understanding to grasp such advances magical practices). Given that it is rare to consider an Aspected Magician character not at Priority D, I tend to lean to the side that aspected magicians aren't magic specialists and aren't supposed to be. They know a piece of magic that they can make good use of, but they don't have the same connection to Magic as full Magicians.

In rethinking these metamagics.... I wonder if many of these rituals would have been altered to be more arcana-based tests, making arcana more relevant and letting all kinds of awakened could take advantage of a lot of these advanced techniques, not just full magicians/aspected sorcerers. But I also see the intent of giving the most shiny things to the full magician who invests heavily in magic skills/initiation.

Edit: Rereading, I forgot what a mess some of these descritions are in SG. While Ally Spirit conjuration is listed as a ritual, it refers specifically to regular summoning/binding rules to performing the ritual. So do you need to have ritual spellcasting to learn the ritual, even if you don't use the skill to do it? I think there is def some leeway here. As for Great Form Spirits, they do seem to require having a bound spirit that you cast a ritual on. That seems odd to me (they aren't summoned great-form they are upgraded post-bonding).