[FastJack]

You're not thinking in "touch attack" terms. A hit means you've tagged your target. Even if you do no damage, you've scored a hit (and sometimes that can do more stuff--i.e. acid damage, nanite delivery, drug injection).

[Usda Beph]

You're not thinking in "touch attack" terms. A hit means you've tagged your target. Even if you do no damage, you've scored a hit (and sometimes that can do more stuff--i.e. acid damage, nanite delivery, drug injection).

No cause a touch attack just needs to make contact with the body. Acid just has to get on you and you will probably burn. has to soak through.

Whats the point of rolling to hit when my hit can be reduced to '0'. Drop it to stun or divide it by 4 and make it stun damage but dang it When your hit your hit for something! Otherwise its a miss.

[FastJack]

You're 'hit' isn't being reduced to zero. The damage it inflicts is. You still hit them, but because they are armored like a tank, they don't feel it. Just like if your adjusted DV doesn't exceed the target's Armor Value, the damage is Stun, not Physical. It's not saying you miss the target, but just that there wasn't enough power behind the attack to affect the target.

Edit: Think of it this way. In real life, if you shoot a guy with a gun, you hit right? But if you throw a spitball at the same guy and tack him right on the forehead, did you miss? You hit in both cases, right? But one puts him down for the count, while the other pisses him off...

[Welshman]

Also a "Hit" means you've hit the space that the target occupied. If the target is in motion, then the space may no longer be occupied by the player by the time your hit connected.

Then again, as FJ said, it's an abstraction. If you try and think to hard about it, it will hurt your brain.

[Mäx]

A hit means I got past the armor and have done damage. That is a hit, anything else is a miss.

So your saying that if you hit Robo Cop with a baseball bat, the fact that he doesn't actually take damage from that means you missed.

Hit means that your attack connected with them, it doing damage is wholly dependant of what you hit them with and how good theyr armoring is and has nothing to do with your attack hitting or missing.
Burst of gell rounds is very likely to hit a tank(that cant really dodge) but its not conna do any damage as vehicles get to ingnore stun damage.

[Usda Beph]

You're 'hit' isn't being reduced to zero. The damage it inflicts is. You still hit them, but because they are armored like a tank, they don't feel it. Just like if your adjusted DV doesn't exceed the target's Armor Value, the damage is Stun, not Physical. It's not saying you miss the target, but just that there wasn't enough power behind the attack to affect the target.

Edit: Think of it this way. In real life, if you shoot a guy with a gun, you hit right? But if you throw a spitball at the same guy and tack him right on the forehead, did you miss? You hit in both cases, right? But one puts him down for the count, while the other pisses him off...

Spit balls aren't a weapon persey.and yes it can hurt depending on the velocity of the person blowing it. Not to mention ball rounds aren't spitballs. If you take no damage you havent been hit, your armor was. It doesn't take alot of armor to make it need an auto cannon to do damage.

Oh well the system is what it is!

FYI everyone. I am not angry nor am I trying to be smug. I have a bunch of respect for all of you... well maybe not The Doomed One (JK) Anyway, don't put any anger or smugness in your voice when reading my posts. My family argues/debates/fights on a regular basis. I am discussing my views without any desire to insult or ridicule. K thx!

[FastJack]

If you take no damage you havent been hit, your armor was.

Now that's just arguing semantics...

[Usda Beph]

If you take no damage you havent been hit, your armor was.

Now that's just arguing semantics...

Don't they publish Fonts and other computer software?

Hey if you're in a houe and I roll successful hits against you but the house/your armor absorbs the damage did I hit you?

[Devil]

That's not a good metaphor.

If the clothes you are wearing are on fire are you on fire?
If the house you are in is on fire are you on fire?

Being in a house and being in armor are not the same thing.

[FastJack]

If you shoot through the wall and it impacts me, yes you hit. I don't expect to take as much damage from the shot compared to if you hit me without an intervening wall, though.

[Usda Beph]

Really?

If the house is on fire and youe escacpe then no your not on fire, otherwise you will be.

If my clothes are on fire & I remove them/snuff them before I get burn then no the clothing was on fire I wasn't.

If the armor absorbs the damage or the house does where's the difference?

If you shoot through the wall and it impacts me, yes you hit. I don't expect to take as much damage from the shot compared to if you hit me without an intervening wall, though.

Depends on how bad the wall fragments. I know of bullets missing and a large sliveror wall section killing the person.

[FastJack]

In the case of the wall fragments, then you missed, but he died of "extenuating circumstances".

[Critias]

I think Usda's issue is coming from along experience with games where armor makes you harder to hit, as opposed to SR where armor makes you harder to damage.

A hit in Shadowrun just means you've connected with your target.  Nothing more, nothing less.  If you hit well (have lots of net hits left over) you greatly increase your chances of making it a damaging strike -- but because there are dice involved, it's no guarantee.  Sometimes in real life, a guy takes a solid punch and just keeps coming.  Should Mike Tyson or Brock Lesnar always be taking a box of damage, when a little old lady hits them with her purse?  

If your gaming group wants to house rule it so anytime you're hit with lethal damage, you take at least one box?  Knock yourself out.  I could see it adding some realism to the game, so that even the hardiest Troll in the heaviest armor can still get "nickled and dimed" a little bit.  I think the game's lethal enough as it is, for the most part, so I wouldn't want that sort of house rule in my game...but as I recall, your group's got at least one fairly min/maxed soak machine, so maybe you're having a different experience with it than some groups.  

[Devil]

Really?

If the house is on fire and youe escacpe then no your not on fire, otherwise you will be.

If my clothes are on fire & I remove them/snuff them before I get burn then no the clothing was on fire I wasn't.

If the armor absorbs the damage or the house does where's the difference?

If you shoot through the wall and it impacts me, yes you hit. I don't expect to take as much damage from the shot compared to if you hit me without an intervening wall, though.

Depends on how bad the wall fragments. I know of bullets missing and a large sliveror wall section killing the person.

The fact of the matter is that in the English language... if something you are wearing is on fire... you are on fire.

If you are wearing a bullet proof vest and someone shoots you in it... you got shot.

If you are wearing a helmet and someone punches you in the head you still got punched in the head.

[Usda Beph]

Nicely put Crit. But what constitutes as hitting then? That little old lady's purse cuts Lesner's/Tyson's face has he taken more damage than if the purse bruises them? As for house ruling, I was thinking that if you get shot/hit/Blown up but your armor absorbs it, guess what your body does too! Get shot wearing body armor, the armor keeps the damage from being leathal but the wearer still gets battered and bruised. The concussion of a grenade can kill/harm the crew of a tank even though the tank is unbreached.

So Give the runner 1 point of stun damage to represent the impact that almost caused mortal damage. That to me is a good rule of thumb. Please note I am suggesting this and I am our groups Bullet catcher! To me that adds some realism to getting shot!

If you are wearing a bullet proof vest and someone shoots you in it... you got shot.

I you are wearing a helmet and someone punches you in the head you still got punched in the head.

You also get bruised and possibly broken bones or a concussion.