[BrysenBlue]

Freelancers are like Samurai, ser. They get a job, they do their best. They don't control or own the fruit of their labors. And it is bad form to speak ill of an employer, no matter who you are. They don't control whether or not an errata comes out or not because they can't speak for the company, because they are just freelancers and are paid for work done, not as representatives of the company. Even if a freelancer writes errata or gives a peek behind the curtain, that is only one person's opinion, and means nothing more than a GM's opinion at the table.

If you had a carpenter building a house but one of the screws in a hinge is jutting out and you don't have the right type of screwdriver, you could go out and buy one and fix it yourself. But you've paid for the house to be built. Now, lets pretend you call Sam's Carpentry unit and ask for someone to come and fix the screw and no one comes. You'd be a little upset. Now lets say you see the carpenter who built the door and you ask him to come over and fix the screw and he told you that he wasn't responsible for it. That he couldn't take the screwdriver on his belt and twist it in and solve your problem. Who would you blame?

The freelancers ARE responsible for the material they write. They do not get a free pass. The line editor doesn't cop all the blame. And the fact that I've only seen one of the freelancers come on and address the problems created by their shoddy work. Its one thing if you make a mistake and the editor does not catch it. Its another when you make a mistake, the editor misses it, and others are impeded by it and you refuse to offer insight.

Saying "They are no different to another GM" is wrong. If what they wrote is present in the book, it was approved. If it does not make sense. They can clarify.

If you have never had much of a hassle until this last book, why all of the rage-vomit across interwebs?

Because I paid $30 for a book we cannot use until we are given a table that would take less than an hour to put together in an official capacity, and rather than do that I was given a bullshit song and dance. Someone blatantly lied to my face and justified their failure as a creative choice. It was disrespectful and I am not going to be disrespected. If you fuck up, you be accountable for it. No one is perfect. We all make mistakes. Its nothing to be ashamed of. When someone is too lazy to provide essential material for their fan base (intentionally) out of what is blatant laziness or pride, it bothers me.

In every other area of people's lives, they tend to suffer long when they love something.

Thats called domestic abuse Opti lol. I'm not going to tolerate suffering or stay with anyone or anything causing me pain simply because I like it or them. I am a grown man and have far more self-respect than that. More options.

But I am not sure that quitting the game and complaining to lots of folks is going to accomplish your mission. I am all for fighting the man, but the golden rule of activism is not doing something that has no chance of working. And if you do what you are promising to do, all you will accomplish is becoming the person that everyone ignores because they only ever rant.

If they ignore me they lose a customer. I'm someone who buys physical copies of the books, digital copies and subscribes to Herolab for purchases there. In the last year my group has spent about a grand on Shadowrun products. We want to support the company and I actually like Shadowrun 5th more than 4th. But if the other problems people are having with the errata is as simple as not having this table and somehow my group has just failed to stumble upon it then I am upset.

Look at when I joined the forum. I didn't just join up and start complaining. I don't want to stick it to the man. When I am given what I paid for (which is an RPG book) I will once again return to my internet slumber.

This "table" is NOT difficult to make. Its literally the easiest thing someone who has worked on RPG writing CAN do. Yet, its being made out like its this huge chore. I'm not some epic game writer and I know exactly what challenges it poses and how easy it is to address. ALL it takes is looking at other avail abilities, the cost of illegal weapons and the cost of vehicles and middling it out somewhere in there in the middle.

I don't want to "Stick it to the man" but I feel like you are being lied too. The freelancers aren't like "mercenaries with pens" they are a crew of people (likely with group organization) that are the company. The company saves itself by keeping them freelance so it doesn't need to pay them a regular wage. This is pretty normal in the industry. Pretending they're not accountable for the quality of their own work is non-sense. If it was me and someone raised a concern on facebook or twitter with my work, I would take the time out of my day to amend it. Its common courtesy. Even if I had to preface it with (This is not an official errata, but this was my intent). And for most that should be enough.

I think I want what you want: To love Shadowrun and to have it be as awesome as possible. But poisoning the water everywhere you go will not accomplish this. It will simply spoil other people's fun as well. And that isn't a noble goal.

Its about accountability and deception. You are all being deceived. I am not sure WHY. But you are being deceived. I would like to think its not just because the people who have worked on these books are lazy or don't want to think about or stand on their work. But so far that is what it looks like. I see a bunch of people blaming the line editor but I would argue that the inaction is more of a trespass.

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the freelancers expect to be paid for writing errata and have made a united front not to do it unless they are paid. A sort of faux union. Call me a conspiracy nut but that makes more sense to me that a bunch of former gamers refusing to address the concerns of their (tiny) fan base. Haunting the boards, I've only seen one freelancer come forward and clarify his intent (the guy who wrote The Ways).

That is all it takes. I don't need all the bells and whistles. I don't need the red carpet unfurled and big official catalyst logos stamped all over the place. Honestly, it would be easy for me to have just convinced the GM to use a table we whipped up by now. I could have done it in half the time it took to make this post, but it is a matter of principle.

If you continue to excuse the shoddy and lazy writing, it will only get worse. So, I will use shame and tar and feathers to help the writers become better writers. When they do good I will praise them highly and pat them on the back and when they refuse to help the fan base I will point and name them. Or they could give me my table and I will leave and you wont hear from me or my group again until we have a question.

But I highly recommend others follow suite. A bit of tough love. They can do better, we've seen it. Don't treat us like idiots. Don't lie and deceive us. There is no shame in admitting fault. We're not unreasonable. Just be honest and do your best.

[Critias]

The freelancers ARE responsible for the material they write. They do not get a free pass. The line editor doesn't cop all the blame. And the fact that I've only seen one of the freelancers come on and address the problems created by their shoddy work. Its one thing if you make a mistake and the editor does not catch it. Its another when you make a mistake, the editor misses it, and others are impeded by it and you refuse to offer insight.

Because I paid $30 for a book we cannot use until we are given a table that would take less than an hour to put together in an official capacity, and rather than do that I was given a bullshit song and dance. Someone blatantly lied to my face and justified their failure as a creative choice. It was disrespectful and I am not going to be disrespected. If you fuck up, you be accountable for it. No one is perfect. We all make mistakes. Its nothing to be ashamed of. When someone is too lazy to provide essential material for their fan base (intentionally) out of what is blatant laziness or pride, it bothers me.

This "table" is NOT difficult to make. Its literally the easiest thing someone who has worked on RPG writing CAN do. Yet, its being made out like its this huge chore. I'm not some epic game writer and I know exactly what challenges it poses and how easy it is to address. ALL it takes is looking at other avail abilities, the cost of illegal weapons and the cost of vehicles and middling it out somewhere in there in the middle.

I don't want to "Stick it to the man" but I feel like you are being lied too. The freelancers aren't like "mercenaries with pens" they are a crew of people (likely with group organization) that are the company. The company saves itself by keeping them freelance so it doesn't need to pay them a regular wage. This is pretty normal in the industry. Pretending they're not accountable for the quality of their own work is non-sense. If it was me and someone raised a concern on facebook or twitter with my work, I would take the time out of my day to amend it. Its common courtesy. Even if I had to preface it with (This is not an official errata, but this was my intent). And for most that should be enough.

Its about accountability and deception. You are all being deceived. I am not sure WHY. But you are being deceived. I would like to think its not just because the people who have worked on these books are lazy or don't want to think about or stand on their work. But so far that is what it looks like. I see a bunch of people blaming the line editor but I would argue that the inaction is more of a trespass.

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the freelancers expect to be paid for writing errata and have made a united front not to do it unless they are paid. A sort of faux union. Call me a conspiracy nut but that makes more sense to me that a bunch of former gamers refusing to address the concerns of their (tiny) fan base.

I've snipped out the above because those quotes contain the greatest concentration of misunderstandings, conspiracies, and incorrect statements.  You continue to demonstrate a basic misunderstanding of not only the responsibilities of a freelancer, but the abilities of one, and you also don't seem to understand that Opti is, himself, a freelancer (so no, he's not being deceived by those nefarious writers, he is one).

The thing you don't seem to get, is that it's not like a freelancer forgot to write a chart.  Nobody was assigned to write a chart, so nobody wrote one.  You keep saying "the freelancer" needs to own up, but you've already contacted the line developer, and heard from him.  If the line developer says no chart, no chart gets written.  Freelancers don't just scribble out whatever they want to, they get assigned a section of book, they get told what goes in it, they write it, and then the line developer keeps it as-is, changes it, snips a little bit here and there, or what-have-you.  There isn't a freelancer refusing to stand by their work, because the chart was nobody's work.  The line dev didn't tell anyone to write a chart, freelancers write what they're told, it's really that simple.

And you've already heard from the line developer telling you why there's no chart, and yet here you are, blaming the freelancers for not giving you a chart, and then blaming them for not giving a chart now, and also not a chart now, and also not a chart now...I get it.  You're disappointed, and that's a bummer.  But you're complaining to, and about, the wrong people (and the most baffling thing is that you've already complained to the right person, you just didn't like his answer so you went back to complaining to the wrong people again). 

That's like going to McDonald's and asking for something, and then the poor guy at the register tells you they don't have it, and he's not supposed to go off-menu.  So you yell for the manager, the manager explains to you that, no, that burger isn't something they offer...but then you go back to yelling at the guy at the register, demanding he make you that burger.  You already went to the authority figure, man.  Jason didn't tell you what you wanted to hear, and that's a bummer, but he's our boss.  If he doesn't hire us to write something, we don't write it.  We can't, officially.  You refuse to hear that, no matter how many times, and how many ways, we explain it.

Seriously, man.  Multiple writers have told you across multiple posts the multiple reasons we can't give you what you want.  I'm sorry you don't like it, but it is what it is.  You can continue to refuse to acknowledge the realities of the industry -- NDAs, and contract labor, and the chain of command at CGL -- all you want, but you're making it really, really, hard to have any sort of productive conversation with you when you do this.  We can't answer you if you refuse to listen to our answers.

[BrysenBlue]

See, stuff like this makes it really hard to want to reply to you.  You don't come off as asking questions in good faith, or even making complaints in good faith.

I have very little good faith for humanity as a whole. This is true. I think most people would just look at my complaint. Moan and then go back to watching TV or playing a video game or hanging out with their family. I have been freelancing myself for about 10 years. It is my primary source of income and in my experience (in the world of comic books at least) most folks will not work unless you motivate them with a heavy hand.

Even when Adzling, one of the most critical of CGL posters around here, tries to remind/explain to you how the system works, you just ignore him and go off on another rant.

Because I'm not going to be lied to. You cannot tell me you don't have a google circle or routine hangout where you discuss this. You've already all gathered and discussed my "rant" no doubt. Likely saying how distasteful it was and how I am causing problems. I've been sitting exactly where you are. And I think you have good intentions (which is why you've replied knowing what a pain in the ass I am). I respect that, but not as much as I respect transparency and honesty.  You're probably a good dude, but that doesn't change that I purchased a product that I cannot really use and no one who worked on the book has been willing to come forward.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to engage with you, when you're acting like this?

Yeah, I do.

You demand to know what SR:Anarchy is, and then go on for like a paragraph about how you already hate it.

I don't remand to know, I asked. Demanding would look something like this...

WHAT THE FUCK IS SHADOWRUN: ANARCHY ANYWAY? TELL ME!

I also don't hate it, I just stated that I do not think it is a good idea financially. And if you read the last couple of posts from other people you will see why. Knowing little to nothing about it (we the consumer, from our point of view) are deterred by the concept of a rule's lite elseworld shadowrun game. This is because (as I understand it) that most people are in long running games and like things clear. People who traditionally play shadowrun are known in the gaming community for being "gun bunnies" and liking heir catalogues, customization and options. They are also known for liking the on-going metaplot and story.

What is being marketed to us (as I understand it) is a Shadowrun which specifically steps away from all of those things. I do not think this will be profitable for Catalyst and as I understand it we will not be able to implement it into our on-going game. I am not here to "troll" the board or undermine your work. I am making these long "Rants" so my stance is clear and understood.

I'm sorry (genuinely sorry) if I come off to blunt, but I'd rather speak frankly and honestly than dance around something.

You demand errata for some rules you think are missing, then you go on to insist that it be official

I never asked for official errata. I would be quite content if the author just came forward and provided us with a table.

(but then you shift the goalposts again, demanding that a freelancer do unpaid work);  which is it, do you want something official (in which case none of us here can help you) or do you insist a freelancer do unpaid work and write something for you

For anyone who purchased the book. Not just for me. For the writer to be beholden to a standard of quality and recognize that they are not writing novels or fan fiction but RPG Material to be consumed by Gamers. If this was not such a minor thing being resisted so strongly with misdirection and deception I would be far less confrontational. More to the point, as I covered earlier you were PAID to provide fluff and rules. What you provided (or whoever wrote it, provided) was lacking an essential piece of information for using the material in the game world.

that they weren't assigned to write by their boss (in which case, ignoring the attitude you're showing and the fact you're insisting someone do someone else's job without their boss's permission, you're still not actually getting the official errata you demanded).

I am "demanding" that the writer of the product (or writers, I am sure you have a guild -- even if its just over Google Hangout) man up and provide us with what was omitted from the book. I am not currently demanding an apology from anyone. But given that Jason lied straight to my face, it would be nice. I'm not shifting goal posts and I'm not the asshole you think I am. I am just not going to stand here and watch you lie to your customer base. I will admit, its a pretty sweet deal you've fostered here with the posters. Making them somehow think you're not responsible for your own missteps. Shifting the blame to the big bad line editor allows you to take all the praise from the good work, build hype about up-coming products and be untouchable when your own laziness and lack of focus backfires. You've somehow shifted the blame and convinced people that the reason that the problems were in the book were not your fault in the first place, but the editors for not catching them.

Its sly, I'll give you that. And it might not be your own plan but you seem content in fostering it rather than just being accountable and growing as a professional. And I'm not saying this just to you, but all the freelancers.

No one is perfect. We all make mistakes. But when the line editor (the boss) misses your mistakes it is not entirely their burden. If they change something you had written and made it convoluted, I would agree. If they removed your content. I would agree. But you should not paid for writing errata. We should not need errata in the first place. I understand nothing is perfect, but lets be fair. You guys know exactly how little work we're talking here.

You're establishing this pattern of behavior, man, that creates nothing but a string of off-topic no-win situations for people.  Not only are you going on these page-long rants in all the wrong threads, but you insist on things, then shift the goalposts to make it impossible to satisfy you. 

Once. *Kicks over the strawman*

I had assumed the topic was over, so I tried striking up some light conversation about what was going on in my game. People were not interested and did not respond. That is fair enough. One post if not a pattern of behavior and you will notice that I have not done the same here. I have stayed focused. The focus of which is the material that you and your peers are refusing to provide. The deception you are weaving and fostering throughout your fanbase and now your attempt to vilify me because you failed to provide essential material.

These page long "rants" are essential, because a simple one line request was met with lies and deception. And I do not want any misunderstanding. I'd hate for people to think they could start building strawmen and mischaracterizing me.

And you're doing all of it to the people who can't help you.  Freelancers can't post official errata.  Non-disclosure agreements prevent us from discussing rules creation or backstage discussions, which means we're not supposed to even really have discussions about errata we'd like to see, and it means we have to be really careful when we post even just a FAQ.  Basic professionalism -- since you say you're in the RPG industry, you should know this -- prevents us from posting an errata/FAQ on someone else's work anyways, and NDAs prevent us from posting a meaningful errata/FAQ on our own work, and we're just contract labor, so nothing we post would be official anyways

Your NDA prevents you from discussing the creative process?  Jesus man, what if your book sold a million copies and you had to do panels at GenCon or something?   What has Cat had you guys sign?!

and it's not your place to demand anything of us at all, anyways, especially when you do it in a way that repeatedly calls us lazy and incompetent.  The list of reasons we shouldn't, and in fact can't, give you what you want just goes on and on and on, and that's without even taking into account the attitude you're showing and the insults you're throwing around.

Well, I will say this. IF what you are saying is true and Catalyst has made you sign something preventing you from talking about your post-published work and your intent as the author I would seriously recommend talking to your peers and approaching them on a united front. What you have agreed to is not in your own best interests or the best interests of the fanbase or their company. I understand reasonable restrictions (not discussing pay or details regarding business) but the fact you cannot discuss your intent as the author is very dubious to say the least.

That said, it has been my experience that people are highly unmotivated or believe that they deserve payment to amend their own work. I do not agree with this as an ethical point and I recommend you reconsider your own stance on this. You are not novelists. No one is asking you to rewrite the setting fluff. And (in the future) the person who wrote the creature descriptions for Howling Shadows should provide creature descriptions and discuss the monster's behavior. Rather than focusing on things like, how it digests its food. PLEASE do not read this in the tone of a pretentious cunt. I am genuinely trying to offer help improve the quality of their work.

You can have a "First person" discussion about said appearance or behavior but they needed to paint a picture of the critter for those who were not familiar with it. I am not expecting them to errata that or go back and rewrite the whole book. I am being loud and "ranting" FOR you and FOR the community as much as it is FOR my own gaming group.

Why? 

The same reason I am entitled to make these demands. I am not one of your peers or your fans. I am a consumer of your product.

We're here, on these forums, on our own time, and on our own dime.  We answer questions when we can, we ask questions and get feedback when we can.  We're here on the forums because we're fans, and we got this job because we're fans.  Our pennies per word don't obligate us to take your rambling demands and abuse.  More importantly, though, we can't give you what you keep demanding we give you.  We write what we're told to write, and that's all we have to write, but it's also all we can write.  Our characters aren't our own, our gear, our rules, our critters.  Our authority over a product, officially and legally, literally ends when we send it in for editing.  It becomes someone else's work, and they get the final say on what makes it to publication, but also the final say on what gets said about it, after the fact.  Legally.

This is all known to me but what was not known was that you had signed away your rights to discuss the creative process. I honestly feel sympathetic and sorry for you. I did about a years work for a company I will not name that paid me with books rather than cash because I'd signed a bad contact. So, I get the situation you are in.

But I am not trying to be a cunt here. I am (believe it or not) trying to help keep your noses above water. You might not like the tough love but that is what this is. So, make sure that Catalyst knows that if the issues are not quickly addressed. If they do not empower you guys to sit down and address the problem(s). They will be losing 5-6 customers (ppft big deal) but those customers will them forward all of the information they have collected on this across the web. Which is what we intend to do.

I know, blah blah blah, never deal with terrorists but we've been left with no other recourse.

We literally can not give you what you want, as freelancers, but you keep demanding we give it to you, in thread after thread, and insulting us when we don't.  And since you claim to be in the RPG industry, you should know that.  If we're here, on the forum, we're already doing everything we can do, everything we're allowed to do, to try and help out.

Maybe you don't like the limitations of contracted freelance work.  Okay, but take that up with the RPG industry as a whole.

No man, if what you guys are saying is true. You have been screwed. How are you going to appear on Podcasts or at Cons and talk about your work if you can't discuss your intent prior to the work reaching editorial?

Anyway, this has been heated enough. As for "thread after thread", no. Just these two. My group killing G-Nome (the other thread I made, at your recommendation no less) is entirely because the other players in my group are all racists to gnomes (God knows why) and I don't like him. So I figured I might as well finally let them off the leash so the next time I want them "NOT" to kill a Gnome, I can say "You guys already killed G-Nome, leave this guy alone."

But that is neither here nor there. Lets keep this on topic.

[Critias]

I've lost count of how many times you've called the freelancers lazy, called us liars, and insisted we're some shadowy cabal that pulls the line developer's strings.  I'm engaging with you as someone who wasn't even involved in Howling Shadows, so I've not really got a dog in this fight.  I'm trying to just explain to you some of your mistaken assumptions and stuff, and you keep coming back with accusations and insults, and that's not the way to encourage people to talk to you.

There's clearly no point in continuing the discussion at this point, since you claim to know our social lives better than we do, you claim to know our contracts better than we do, you claim to know our NDA's better than we do, you claim to know the freelancing process better than we do, you claim to know our work ethic better than we do, you claim to know what work was assigned to us better than we do, you claim to know the errata process better than we do, you claim to know our line developer's responsibilities better than we do, you claim to know our editor's process better than we do, and since you've decided that any time our answers don't align with your assumptions, we're lying to you.

So, okay.

There's just no engaging with that in a productive way, so have a good one.  I'm sorry you're upset about your book, but you're making it impossible -- literally impossible -- to have a constructive discussion. 

[BrysenBlue]

I've lost count of how many times you've called the freelancers lazy, called us liars, and insisted we're some shadowy cabal that pulls the line developer's strings.  I'm engaging with you as someone who wasn't even involved in Howling Shadows, so I've not really got a dog in this fight.  I'm trying to just explain to you some of your mistaken assumptions and stuff, and you keep coming back with accusations and stuff, and that's not the way to encourage people to talk to you.

So there's clearly no point in continuing the discussion at this point, since you claim to know our social lives better than we do, you claim to know our contracts better than we do, you claim to know our NDA's better than we do, you claim to know the freelancing process better than we do, you claim to know our work ethic better than we do, you claim to know what work was assigned to us better than we do, you claim to know the errata process better than we do, you claim to know our line developer's responsibilities better than we do, you claim to know our editor's process better than we do, and since you've decided any time our answers don't align with your assumptions, we're lying to you.

So, okay.

There's just no engaging with that in a productive way, so have a good one.  I'm sorry you're upset about your book, but you're making it impossible -- literally impossible -- to have a constructive discussion.

Go away. Calm down. Come back and read the last two paragraphs of my post again. I did not understand (and I admit this) that the nature of the NDA you signed limited your speech on your intent as the author. Now that you have cleared that up with me, I actually feel quite sorry for you. But "realistically" it doesn't change anything. It just means you and your peers are in a no-win situation and just as screwed as we are.

Again, stop and think about this for a moment. If you cannot talk about your intent, then you run the risk of breaching the NDA each time you sit a panel or you have to tell anyone who asks you cannot answer them. If (unlikely I know) but if one of the books you guys blows up. If you end up selling millions and you cannot address or clarify content you have written within the book without breaking your contact with CAT, well... as you said. You know your specific contract better than me, so look at it.

Its a bad contract, you guys are getting a raw deal. They do not pay you a regular wage (acceptable) but placing limits on your creative speech is not in your best interests. Your "main" income is going to be from cons and Q&As and if you can't speak honestly there without putting yourself at legal risk, that is a real problem. Wouldn't you agree?

[PiXeL01]

You haven't been searching that hard, Blue.
Off the top of my head I can mention at least three authors coming back to discuss their product or providing erratas. Run Faster had that, Rigger 5 and Chrome Flesh, hell even the guy who wrote part of the Street Grimoire came back with clarifications.

So ... Are you a troll? Honestly at this point I find it hard to believe you could be anything else.

[BrysenBlue]

You haven't been searching that hard, Blue.
Off the top of my head I can mention at least three authors coming back to discuss their product or providing erratas. Run Faster had that, Rigger 5 and Chrome Flesh, hell even the guy who wrote part of the Street Grimoire came back with clarifications.

I've read the guy that addressed Street Grim, haven't seen the guy on Run Faster or Rigger 5.0 -- but I will admit our group has never had a problem with RF or R5.0. So I was not aware anything needed to be addressed. Both seemed to be pretty straight forward, honestly.

So ... Are you a troll? Honestly at this point I find it hard to believe you could be anything else.

No man, I'm not. I tried sending an e-mail labeled "Private and Confidential" disclosing more information to a couple of the writers on the board, but as far as I can see I have nothing in my "Sent Box" so I think a lot of my intent here is lost.

To speak honestly, I do not want to quit Shadowrun. In an ideal world, the powers that be get their shit together and this account goes dark. I realized that me quietly walking away would not instigate change and since I saw the writer addressing the Street Grim stuff a few months back I know that there are writers here who are happy to clarify their content.

So I assumed this would not be the headache it has been. I assumed things would be easily addressed along with a simple apology and folks could go back to having fun and enjoying the game. I am not a "rules lawyer" or a "rules heavy" kind of guy. But when I cannot use a book because of something so simple (Honest to God). And the writer behind it does not even want to spend (Probably only 15 minutes, honestly) addressing the problem its frustrating.

If this was not such a minor effort to fix that is being disregarded I would not be so upset. And when I look and see they have not issued errata in 24 months, it is discouraging. Being quiet and content will not change it. And so I am making some noise, I apologize if the death-rattle of my fandom isn't a perfect requiem. But it is what it is.

[Blue Rose]

So ... Are you a troll? Honestly at this point I find it hard to believe you could be anything else.

Look at him.

He's blue.

He's obviously an oni.

A very pretty oni.

Now we just need to find the red one.

[Kiirnodel]

I'm not positive on the exact wording for Catalyst freelancers, but most NDAs prevent a person from disclosing information regarding the content without the express consent of the controlling company. In this circumstance, that means that nobody can discuss content that may have been discussed for the book but ultimately not included. And it was mentioned before, if the line editor never gave out the assignment to create the table, then it was never anyone's job to create one. This means that the claim that it is the writer's responsibility to fix the problem is ultimately wrong. Not to mention that there likely isn't a revised list, so it would have to be made up, and like everyone has been saying, any individual writer doesn't get final say about what passes for final rules.

So, no. None of the writers can come out and just spew out a chart for you or any of us. It would either a) be unofficial, b) break NDA, c) be unapproved (and wrong), or d) any combination of these

[Novocrane]

Hasn't the guy already stated he'd be ok with a or c?

[Critias]

No man, I'm not. I tried sending an e-mail labeled "Private and Confidential" disclosing more information to a couple of the writers on the board, but as far as I can see I have nothing in my "Sent Box" so I think a lot of my intent here is lost.

I, for one, received your PM, and your attempt at explaining yourself further..  As I said, however, I'd rather not continue an argumentative conversation in private.  I think I've said my piece here in the open, and I'd like to just leave it at that, thank you.

[AJCarrington]

Multiple reports; locking thread until I can discuss further with FastJack.

@BrysenBlue - despite your stated intent, you are not providing constructive criticism at this point.

SR Mod