[Bendicott]

So I'm new to the game, and have decided to set my long-term goal as conjuring an ally spirit. I'm attempting to compile list of the various ways to enhance my summoning / binding test scores. So far, I've got:

Initiate to increase my magic skill
Increase my summoning and binding skills (plus Aptitude)
Choose an appropriate mentor spirit (summoning only)
Take the Spirit Affinity and Spirit Champion qualities
Obtain a spirit focus
Use edge (binding only, I think?)
Request the aid of other magicians (summoning only, I think?)

How does specialization work for magic skills? Would I just choose the type of spirit I'm most in-tune with?
Can the boost from blood points only be used when summoning blood spirits? I'm fairly certain this is the case, and it doesn't look like there's any other way to affect summoning or binding with their expenditure.

On a side note, are there always so many captchas, or is it because my account is new?

[Jack_Spade]

You can have your face push your check with a Leadership test .
Also yes, you can choose the type of spirit you specialize in
Blood Points can be spend on other things too, but you should expect some corruption / spirit index increase

Boosting just summoning/binding is not really efficient. You need also keep an eye on your drain soaking abilities.

The captchas go away once you reach a certain post number.

[Beta]

In inverse order:

- because your account is new

- looks about right.  Edge is probably the key one, if you have a decent amount of edge. 
- depending on your GM, you might get bonuses for particular situations/backgrounds/etc.
( In my game the shaman was getting ready to bind an ally, had the formula and was just building up the karma, when I sent the group on a long meta-planar quest to save the world (I adapted Harlequin's Back from 2nd edition).  The would be ally got pulled along on the quest too.  Shaman did the binding at the end, at a spot that counts as being part of the 'normal world' in terms of how things work, but is a representation of the impact of the great ghost dance on the mana levels -- and had some help of an immortal elf (said elf is too much of a PITA to give a lot of help, but even a bit of help from someone who has been around since the last awakened age is good).  and the spirit was ready to bind itself to the shaman, as a partnership.  Made the binding roll pretty easy.

Not saying you can expect something similar, but ... well, some GM like to stick to what is printed in the rule book, some are more willing to color outside the lines if they like how that makes the picture look.

[Bendicott]

True - I'm playing a pixie with fairly respectable mental stats (Exceptional Attribute + Mutagenic Attribute for 10 will, and currently 6/7 charisma), so I'm not too worried about the summoning drain. The binding drain, however... that's an entirely different story. Suggestions? It says if the spirit's force > PC's magic, the damage is physical... is there any way to convert a single source of drain from physical to mental? I'd have a much better chance of surviving that.

[Beta]

errr, how big of an allied spirit are you looking at binding? 

[Bendicott]

Looking at a force 14 - it's a long term investment. It will require at least one initiation to even be possible, but after quickly browsing for ways to diminish drain, I think picking up a second initiate level for centering would be in my best interests.

[Beta]

Wow, is your group the sort that can balance around something that big?  And be patient for the 25+ runs where the only substantial upgrade you have locked in is a centering focus?

[firebug]

Looking at a force 14 - it's a long term investment. It will require at least one initiation to even be possible, but after quickly browsing for ways to diminish drain, I think picking up a second initiate level for centering would be in my best interests.

That would probably take years, in real life, to accomplish.  I'd suggest settling for a F6 the moment you can get one, then improving it over time.  You'll have the benefits of the ally much earlier, which is a very very good thing because those benefits are massive. 

[Bendicott]

Out of curiosity, why would you assume that would require years, IRL? I realize initiation is a lengthy process, but I've read nothing to suggest it would take anywhere near that long. On a side note, I'm probably going to forgo the second initiation and burn a point of edge for Smackdown on the drain resistance test to shave off a few months. If I do everything on that list above (unlikely), I'm looking at 367 base karma (421 if I take aptitude and a 13th point in binding), plus the cost for binding both the spirit and a summoning focus; probably around another hundred fifty. At our current rate of about 15 karma / two weeks, I'd be looking at a year and 9 weeks (plus the time for an initiation, if you go conservative and assume I'd gain zero karma in the process). Barely over a year does not seem horrible for a character's lifelong goal.

Also, this is assuming I did nothing else in the meantime, which everyone seems to do... why would anyone assume I'm passing up every opportunity to buy spells, train, etc.? Hell, even if I were, assuming I made half of the runs between now and the ritual with nothing but the benefits of initiating for the centering metamagic (along with the relevant focus), I could still pump out a reasonable amount of damage. That would put me at 7 magic (after paying for the upgrade, ofc), and I'm already sitting at 10 mental limit... Being able to rely on the centering focus to keep me alive, while pumping out force 14 improved invisibility and napalms (spells I already have, along with several utility spells to keep me relevant in more subtle situations) every fight is nothing to laugh at.

[Bendicott]

I will cede the point on gaining an earlier benefit and upgrading later, though. I could go with an 8-10 and probably be able to bind it in as many months (while continuing to advance my character in other areas).

[Reaver]

To give you an idea:

My mage has been playing since 1e at an average pace of 2 games a week for the first 15 years (real life) and around 1 game a week for the last 10+ years, for a total karma around 4400.

From that, I have initiated 18 times, AND  have a force 18 ally spirit..... which cost around 2000+ karma after all is said and done.....


To just keep the drain of the summoning from being  lethal you need to BOTH initate 8 times AND raise your magic rating.... for a cost of around 553 karma (assuming magic 6 starting)...

So 550 karma JUST for initation and magic increases.... and we have not touched on skills or foci, or anything else that requires karma..... assuming 8 karma a run, you'll need about 70 runs just to pay for them......



Yea....

Go smaller for your ally spirit.

[Bendicott]

Sorry, but that math seems completely off. That's an average of 2.11 karma per session; that seems pretty low, going by the book's suggestions. Also, while you can definitely sink a ton of points into your ally, initially binding one takes nowhere near 2k karma. 5e rules, you'd be looking at 8 x F18 = 144 karma, which comes with 18 free powers (I'm not sure without counting, but I don't think there even are that many). You could load one down with tons of spells, or crank up its stats, but I doubt anyone would argue that a F18 ally spirit with every available power is balanced. And 8 initiate levels? Why??? Pick up one level for invocation to get the ally ritual, and a second for centering (probably not in that order). Make / buy a F6 or 7 metamagic focus, add in my will + charisma for another 16, and edge to trigger exploding sixes... I'd have a fair chance of doing the binding test for a F14 and walking away unscathed. And if not, it wouldn't be enough to kill me; take a few days to recoup, and we're g2g. I agree that dropping to a 10 will be much faster, but I still don't see that a 14 would take anywhere near as long as people are suggesting.

Anyways, got the answers I needed, so thanks everyone!

[Reaver]

Sorry, but that math seems completely off. That's an average of 2.11 karma per session; that seems pretty low, going by the book's suggestions. Also, while you can definitely sink a ton of points into your ally, initially binding one takes nowhere near 2k karma. 5e rules, you'd be looking at 8 x F18 = 144 karma, which comes with 18 free powers (I'm not sure without counting, but I don't think there even are that many). You could load one down with tons of spells, or crank up its stats, but I doubt anyone would argue that a F18 ally spirit with every available power is balanced. And 8 initiate levels? Why??? Pick up one level for invocation to get the ally ritual, and a second for centering (probably not in that order). Make / buy a F6 or 7 metamagic focus, add in my will + charisma for another 16, and edge to trigger exploding sixes... I'd have a fair chance of doing the binding test for a F14 and walking away unscathed. And if not, it wouldn't be enough to kill me; take a few days to recoup, and we're g2g. I agree that dropping to a 10 will be much faster, but I still don't see that a 14 would take anywhere near as long as people are suggesting.

Anyways, got the answers I needed, so thanks everyone!

you are missing several important things.

First is drain.
Second is just how much edge you can spend, namely: 1.
Lastly: I would refer you back to the SG book and the section on spirits near the back for why you want to have your Magic rating as high as possible......

PS: a huge wall of test is very hard to read, as it just comes across as a giant run-on sentence.

[Bendicott]

PS: a huge wall of test is very hard to read, as it just comes across as a giant run-on sentence.

I mean... if you ignore all of the punctuation, sure. But I'll break it up into smaller blocks in the future.

you are missing several important things.

First is drain.

Make / buy a F6 or 7 metamagic [centering] focus, add in my will + charisma for another 16, and edge to trigger exploding sixes... I'd have a fair chance of doing the [resist drain roll for the] binding test for a F14 and walking away unscathed. And if not, it wouldn't be enough to kill me; take a few days to recoup, and we're g2g.

Or, as previously mentioned, I could entirely forgo the second initiation for centering and just burn a point of edge for Smackdown on the drain resist roll. Of course, I would have to pass the binding test without the advantage of edge, but that was the entire point of this thread - finding various ways to boost that single roll.

I reread the section on ally spirits, then reread it again to see if I missed anything... I really have no idea what you were trying to point me towards. I know the PC's magic rating is used in the summoning and binding tests, as well as acting as a limit on the force of the spirit (max force = magic x 2). But nothing else seems to be directly dependent on that stat? You want your edge as high as possible, since the spirit gets your edge as a free stat, but magic...

[bangbangtequila]

I think he meant that you'll take physical damage. So to summon a F14 you'll take, on average, (28/3)*2-(DR/3), where DR = Drain Resistance Pool. Assuming maxed out possible as a pixie, that's 25 with centering, initiated twice, and a force 7 centering focus (8 willpower + 8 charisma + 2 centering + 7 focus), meaning you negate 8.33. That still means you take 9.33 physical damage, which is just an average, not taking edge into account. In other words, you've just killed yourself.

Even with edge, you've got something in the range of a 50% chance of simply dying of head explosion. Now, on your ally binding test, you're repeating the same situation, and statistically dying something like 9/10 times without burning edge. On top of this, the generally accepted interpretation of high level spirits in games I've played includes them using edge to resist you. Since he would have 14 edge (I remember reading that spirits have edge equal to force, which prior to you taking control and granting it your edge would be applicable), that use would absolutely guarantee you turn into a vaguely pixie-shaped splotch on the floor, I would imagine in a very similar way to Rorschach's demise near the end of Watchmen.

So no, you do not in any way, shape or form have any realistic chance of walking away unscathed from attempting to summon and bind a F14 spirit. You would have to seriously bump your drain dice (and have an incredibly talented medic with a massive first aid dice pool on hand), and a few suggestions for that would be as follows:
1) Improved attribute spells. You can augment your willpower and charisma by 4 points each, granting a bonus 8 dice.
2) Boosting the living hell out of your edge
3) Just continue pumping your centering up as much as possible

I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted something here.