[Reaver]

And it was the 2nd edition Lone Star book that covered this all before. (Cause you asked )

Nostalgia:On
I knew it must have been in this one ! Gosh I remember when I tried to find the Lone Star Guide back in the day. Somehow, it never reached France, and it quickly went out of print (or whatev). I found it in some shop several years ago, when I was not playing Shadowrun anymore - but I still bought it.

I have to finish reading all the 5ed material, I have, but as soon as I'm done, I'm going to go back to some "oldies" like this one...
Nostalgia:Off

OK, so let me share a bit more about my intrigue, that might help skew the answers (and hopefully gave me some more cool tips) in the right direction. The imprisoned Halloweener Mage has just been arrested, so he is definitely in temporary custody for trial (so he is not burned out yet). He is actually the only one who knows where is a Yakusa Oyabun or Mafia Don (to be determined) now place in Witness Protection.

The runner employers actually want to extract this guy, thanks to the Info of the Halloweener Mage, to use him as leverage against his criminal organisation ("if you don't comply, the guy will reappears and testify against you...").

Back to the technical details of the Mage incarceration. I like the idea of having him wired to VR, on top of Magecuffs, as it seems a good idea to (cheaply) ensure he is harmless. However, I also want to leave the option for my character to simply infiltrate the prison and extract the information from him...

Actually, maybe they could do that by infiltering the "off line" node he is connected to ? He, he, good stuff

ok, so if he has just been arrested (within a couple of days), he'll be Cuffed and Masked for sure (that is SOP for a mage suspect of violent crime), However, if he is turning State's evidence, they MAY be willing to cut him some slack (depending on just how earnest he seems to be!). Which poses the question: Just how Co-operative IS he? Witness Protection for a ganger means the sweet life - FOR life!
(If I was this Oyabun, I would have a team after this guy too... but to kill him! That is, if I knew enough)

IF he is turning States Evidence and is a willing participant, he might not even BE in jail, they may have him in protective custody somewhere else..... Be a real kick to the nuts for the runners if they went through all the work of breaking INTO the prison, only to find out he is being held across town in a motel. <Evil GM grin>. And, is he really THAT willing to go back to the 'thug' life after being offered a fresh start with a 'cozy' lifestyle (relative to the Ganger lifestyle) and job?? (that's up to you)

****

  The only real problem with a VR jail is the fact that they would be online ALL the time (and hot simmed if I remember correctly)... Which means someone from the outside could gain access to them still (Some criminals are dangerous only for the knowledge they possess. Heads of Criminal Families are not dangerous because of their Physical characteristics, but for their mental facilities and moral ethos, things that remain intact and possibly usable in a VR setting.
  Then there is the costs of VR realm itself. This is an additional cost on top of the costs of holding and housing these people, and it WOULD NOT be cheap. You have to maintain the host and its equipment, then you have to maintain the commlinks and materials for each inmate...... Which means a larger technical staff (which is more costly then just guards). And remember, in SR prison and incarceration is a Business! Lone Star wants to Churn a profit by housing these criminals! They do that by offering to house and hold them for cheaper then the Feds can do - then they actually DO it cheaper!
  And by 'cheaper' doesn't mean investing Millions or Billions on Matrix tech for criminals..... It means cutting corners every where they can! It means taking the short termers and hiring them out as manual labour to the corps to package and assemble Nerps for consumers. It means taking those Lifers and contracting out experimental surgeries, drug tests, Gene therapy and products on them.....

  And they can get away with all this thanks to their AA Corp status and extra-territoriality agreements.... Who says you needs real guards that you have to pay a yearly salary plus benefits to when several tracked drones armed with light machine guns and SnS ammo can monitor the hallways and living areas 24/7/365?   Who says we don't have the right to harvest the organs from a death row inmate to sell for several hundred thousand to medical research? And just WHERE do you think cyberdocs go to actually practice implantation surgeries? Who and how many test subjects did it take to learn to wire that cerebral enhancement for the first time???



The Lone Star book touches on all of this (so read it FAST!!! You need the info!). It really does do a good job of laying out just how and why criminals and prison is profitable to Lone Star and just how they make their money. And the sad, scary part is, IF the rumors are true the author just looked back tot he US prison system of the 1900s-1950s, and then enhanced them!   

 

[belaran]

Yes, I've pretty much ruled out the VR for all of the above (bottom line, it does the job, but it's unpractical). And yes, I'm planning to read Lone Star soon. I have the paper version in my country house, and i'll go there before running this scenario so ...

Now, little misunderstanding on my complex intrigue (I'm known for those). The Helloweener Mage is NOT the one turning state side. Let's called him Dispatch, just to have a name. Dispatch just happens to know where the Oyabun or Don that turn state side is. Let's call him StateSide.

So, for now, my intrigue would be that the runner are employed by a third party (I'm thinking Triad) to jail break the Halloweener Mage, Dispatch, or just interrogate him to find out where is StateSide and the process to his extraction (again StateSide extraction).

I'm thinking of something like the State Side is hiding with girlfriend and/or bodyguard who happens to be the sister / friend of the Dispatch. The runner's employer (Triad) would then have learn that she meet with Dispatch, just after State Side went into WitSec (with her).

OK, now I still need a twist, probably happening after the jail break and/or during the extraction of StateSide. I would like something utterly not crime related... Maybe StateSide did a bad deal with a spirit ? Or something like that....

In any case, thanks all for contributing to this thread !

[Tym Jalynsfein]

Naah, Reaver... Secluded System, Effective Virtual Environment with absolutely no connection to the greater, greater Matrix. Done.   

[Reaver]

Naah, Reaver... Secluded System, Effective Virtual Environment with absolutely no connection to the greater, greater Matrix. Done.   

Ok. But that still costs money. And if the inmates are VR meat puppets, they are not making you money.

So where is the advantage?

Uppity inmates can still do work without their toenails. Or toes. Or soles of the feet. Or feet for that matter.... start signing them up for chemical tests which they get outta line, they stop getting out of line! And they serve as an example to the others.

(This is literally right out of Lone Star).

So until yiu can figure out a way for those VR inmates to make money that exceeds the costs, never going to happen.

[Jack_Spade]

Are there really that many unskilled labor jobs left that you have to use prisoners to do them?
Don't forget that the Lone Star book is quite outdated now. Drones work 24/7 and with consistent precision, don't need guards to keep them in line and don't steal tools to make shivs.

And it's not like you can't make people work in VR. Just have them solve Protein folding puzzles and captchas, make data entry, or let them farm gold in MMORPGs or whatever the equivalent is in 2075 (Those are examples of what the Chinese have their prisoners do).

VR solves inmate violence, reduces guard costs and the costs for maintaining real living conditions. Even the strongest and most resilient inmate becomes a puppy if he can't use his own body.

[farothel]

And you can still use the body to run drug tests on.  For a number of tests your subjects don't have to move, so you can do them on the body while the mind is out.

[belaran]

It's true that the Lone Star book is quite old, and that "forced labor" could be done by VR. There must be an equivalent of "data entry" is the future, and it can probably be achieved indeed by prisonner.

That being said, the real question here is not "what should be or not", but what version of this will bring more fun to my game. In my case, I think it's better for my PCs to have the option to become prisoner and discuss with Dispatch (the prisoner) rather than wiring him in a closed VR env.

Regarding the outdateness of Lone Star also bear in mind that not all facility are SOTA and that most of them can still be living according to the 50's standard. A lot of prison nowadays are certainly not up to the latest security protocols...

[Reaver]

Are there really that many unskilled labor jobs left that you have to use prisoners to do them?
Don't forget that the Lone Star book is quite outdated now. Drones work 24/7 and with consistent precision, don't need guards to keep them in line and don't steal tools to make shivs.

And it's not like you can't make people work in VR. Just have them solve Protein folding puzzles and captchas, make data entry, or let them farm gold in MMORPGs or whatever the equivalent is in 2075 (Those are examples of what the Chinese have their prisoners do).

VR solves inmate violence, reduces guard costs and the costs for maintaining real living conditions. Even the strongest and most resilient inmate becomes a puppy if he can't use his own body.

Drones where covered in LS. As well as the types of jobs these inmates do. Most of it it is assembly of form factor household items. And it is only marginally cheaper to employ the prison labour (but even a 0.001 savings per unit adds up to large dollars if the volumne is high enough.) Other examples are labour programs in the fields of the inmates.

Remember, a LARGE protion of people in jail are really just 'average joes'. They have lives and skills. Only a tiny percentage are violent sociopaths. Doctors, accountants, electricians, engineers all break the law everyday and are sentenced to jail. LS is very good at harvesting this labour and using it. (As I recall, the Feds where the biggest customer)

[Jack_Spade]

Noted and conceded - especially since that seems to have been a pretty accurate prediction of the current situation (at least in the US afaik)

But the original question was centered on more dangerous elements - like mages and career criminals. Those are probably cheaper to hold in VR.

[Reaver]

Noted and conceded - especially since that seems to have been a pretty accurate prediction of the current situation (at least in the US afaik)

But the original question was centered on more dangerous elements - like mages and career criminals. Those are probably cheaper to hold in VR.

For that really dangerous few, the Charles Manson's and the like, (the ones you don't want having contact with anyone!) yea I can see VR or long term drug induced comas. Especially while figuring out exactly where the money in them lies.. (Gene ware?, Drug cocktail?, Cyber implantation experiementation? Organ Research?)

The things they talked about in the LS book....Lets just say, it REALLY gave you a reason not to kill cops.

[farothel]

Not to mention the fact that if you have very good VR programmers, you can make them think they are out and try to find out where their connections are.  You catch a big maffia don, you put him in VR and program in all known associates and try to make him talk.  A good VR program coupled with some good drugs can actually work.

[Reaver]

Me thinks someone watched Virtuosity  recently

[Tym Jalynsfein]

Is it Live or is it Memorex?

[Reaver]

" Oh Parker, just because I carry the joy of slaughtering your entire family inside me doesn't mean we can't be friends!"

[farothel]

Me thinks someone watched Virtuosity  recently

I've never seen that movie.  My mind is just slighty bent and very twisted.