[TimTurry]

Sometimes it is harder to design a character when you have all the options.  Sometimes there are too many constrains:

Given:
1) An Elven Technomancer with stats 8,5,5,5  in Chr, Int, Log, WP
2) Plenty of cash (about 130K), and some karma (about 20).  Expect these to keep coming in.
3) A desire to not drop essence.
4) A desire to not  use (mostly not get addicted to) drugs
5) Resonance Vail and Editor

How would you improve this character?
How would you improve those states in #1?
He has gotten 1-shotted twice now in the matrix.  How do you improve that?
How do you take on those Rating 8+ hosts?
What Echos (in order) would you take?

[Imladir]

One thing I'm really considering is taking one point of essence worth of bioware, mainly for the Cerebral Booster and the Cerebellum booster. With a submersion, you can raise your resonance back to 6.
Going from 5 to 8 in Logic seems to interesting to pass up, and your 30 points of karma used to raise Resonance back is cheap. You can even add a Cerebellum booster 1 or 2 to raise intuition.

More dice to hack, but most importantly, you raise your sleaze and data processing ratings by a lot. If you don't, you would have to take a bunch of echoes for this.
The first one would be Skinlink probably though, to be able to direct connect to stuff and bypass hosts protections.

[firebug]

Getting one-shot is usually how the matrix works--  TM or not.  However, Technomancers do actually have one way to beat that.  If you take, as your second Echo, the what...  Fight or Flight Filter?  The thing that's basically a Pain Editor.  That will allow you to take a significant amount more Stun (read: Matrix) damage, about three times as much.  It also prevents matrix damage from giving you dice pool penalties, yet another downside TMs struggled with.


For your first Echo, Skinlink is the obvious choice.  An innumerable amount of things suddenly become approachable when you can direct connect.

Imladir makes a good point.  While I don't think that Technomancers should need augmentations to be effective, since they're clearly supposed to be unaugmented from mechanics and flavor (clearer in previous editions), Resonance is...  Well, it's basically worthless.

Complex Forms suck and sprites, while powerful, can be ignored if you trade your lower RES score for being able to actually hack.

Submersion is how I suggest you improve the character through Karma until you've Submerged 3 times, at which point skills become a cheaper option.  Skinlink, FFF, Resonance Program [Fork] or maybe [Signal Scrubber]...  Though AGAIN, it's complete bullshit to have to use an Echo on what costs a hacker 250¥!  For Complex Forms, Puppeteer can make or break something if you don't mind getting grievously wounded by using it, and Transcendant Grid is the only way to avoid getting a -2 penalty against people on the Public Grid.

As for Rating 8+ Hosts?  You don't.  Not until you're very very experienced.  A Rating 4 Host can catch a skilled starting decker off-guard on occasion.  A technomancer, at least not without hundreds of Karma, won't be able to do anything to a Rating 8 Host.  And no green runner should be going up against that kinda host anyways--  "The local Ares headquarters" isn't something people do on their first year as a shadowrunner.

[Coyote]

If you do manage to get to +3 Logic boosts, you can consider Narco as another addition. With Narco, and the So Jacked Up quality, you can run Psyche (+2/+2 to Int/Log), and use SJU to shift a point from Log to Int. Then you're running at +3 Int and +4 Log, which gives you 8 Sleaze and 9 Logic dice. So now the Host has to roll against your 17 dice to Perceive what you are doing. Grid-hop off the Public grid, and don't run Silent (just mix in legal actions with your illegal stuff, so the Patrol IC may not even check at the right time to see that you're doing illegal stuff), and you end up with 19 dice to defend against Perceive actions. This gives you a strong chance to hang around even in a Rating 8 Host.

Actually doing stuff in there... well, with 9 Logic and 8 dice from skill & specialization, well, you have a chance to do stuff. Not much of one, to be fair. With 8 Int and 9 Log, limits are not much of a problem, but getting to 20+ dice is pretty hard without calling in a Sprite, and the Sprite will be a lot easier to spot than you are. So you are going to be rolling about even dice against the Host, which means that if you're doing a Sleaze action, you need to throw Edge to avoid being Marked.

Basically, you can hack a Rating 8 host... but with a less than 50-50 chance of success. This is something that you do when you're in situations like in the SR books, where the odds are against you and you have to resort to desperate measures, but it's not something that you do as a career. In other words, even with the best min-maxed starting TM, avoid hacking Rating 8 Hosts for money... only try it when you're really desperate, which generally is something that happens in campaigns only after PCs obtain some enemies. So, it's rarely a situation for starting PCs to get into.

[TimTurry]

Going from 5 to 8 in Logic seems to interesting to pass up, and your 30 points of karma used to raise Resonance back is cheap.

People are giving good advice, so I am hesitant to derail them.  But you just brought up something I am confused about.  I too thought that if bioware brings me from 6->5 that I can submerge, and then pay 30 karma to bring resonance back up to 6.  But Chummer tells me that I need to bay 35 karma.  Which mean I'd be bringing my res from 6->7 and having bioware drop it down to 6.  Is Chummer charging me too much karma?

[Imladir]

I've just tried on Chummer, and I only have to pay 30 karma, not 35.

[TimTurry]

I've just tried on Chummer, and I only have to pay 30 karma, not 35.

You are right.  When I click on it, the correct amount is subtracted.  Only when I mouse over, does it show the wring karma amount.

[Hobbes]

As for Rating 8+ Hosts?  You don't.  Not until you're very very experienced.  A Rating 4 Host can catch a skilled starting decker off-guard on occasion.  A technomancer, at least not without hundreds of Karma, won't be able to do anything to a Rating 8 Host.  And no green runner should be going up against that kinda host anyways--  "The local Ares headquarters" isn't something people do on their first year as a shadowrunner.

Just ran a game where the moderately advanced TM (couple runs) "easily" handled a Rating 7 host.  Skinlink for Direct Access, ducked the patrol IC, called up a Crack Sprite, and proceeded to hack locks and alarms just fine.  He'd fire off Diffusion of Firewall on each Icon before starting the hack, and with the Crack Sprite, was able to hack the things.  Used one point of Edge along the way on a bad roll. 

Skinlink makes getting into the Host very easy, once you're in there you've got to deal with the 16+ dice pools that the host is using to resist, but a fairly bland Petnomancer build can compete with those dice pools.  5 Logic, 6 Skill, Codeslinger, Specialization, Psyche, Aid from a Sprite (or two) and whatever wild card you've got from your CFs. 

TMs can handle Hosts as well as Deckers, not that a Rating 8 host is something either will handle out of char gen without buckets of help.  But a few Runs in the TM should have the tools to give it a shot.  Especially for a Datasteal.  TM's with Edit file are pretty much an Autowin for Datasteals.   

[Hobbes]

Sometimes it is harder to design a character when you have all the options.  Sometimes there are too many constrains:

Given:
1) An Elven Technomancer with stats 8,5,5,5  in Chr, Int, Log, WP
2) Plenty of cash (about 130K), and some karma (about 20).  Expect these to keep coming in.
3) A desire to not drop essence.
4) A desire to not  use (mostly not get addicted to) drugs
5) Resonance Vail and Editor

How would you improve this character?
How would you improve those states in #1?
He has gotten 1-shotted twice now in the matrix.  How do you improve that?
How do you take on those Rating 8+ hosts?
What Echos (in order) would you take?

You should be a Brute Force monster.  What Positive Qualities did you take?  Charisma 8 TM should just kick down doors and take what they want. 

If that build is taking 10+ Stun damage from a single attack I'd have to know the rest of the build and just what the hell are you facing that is blasting your doors off like that.

If you don't have Fade to Black or Ninja Vanish I recommend it for a Brute Force build.  Blast your way into a Host and go *poof*, much fun. 

Sprites, Sprites, Sprites, and always know your objective. 

If you're in a Host make sure your Crack Sprite has Suppression ready to go.  The bad thing about Hosts is the waves of unlimited IC if you get busted, so be sure you can turn off the waves. 

Resonance Veil is for Spiders.  Spider shows up, hit them with Resonance Veil and move on.  "The Host just went offline" or "An AI Persona is trying to hack his Deck and steal it" or whatever.  You should, with a wave of your hand, send a Spider running for a while.

Progressions to consider.  Puppeteer CF.  Hacking, Cybercombat, or even Software Skill Specializations to cover what you need.  Echo, Skinlink is #1, but Program [Smoke and Mirrors] is pretty awesome.

Gear.  If you don't have Rating 6 Fresnel Fabric yet, run, don't walk to your nearest Armorer or Fixer contact and get some.  Now.  And don't forget it has a Wireless bonus. 

[TimTurry]

You should be a Brute Force monster.  What Positive Qualities did you take?  Charisma 8 TM should just kick down doors and take what they want. 

If that build is taking 10+ Stun damage from a single attack I'd have to know the rest of the build and just what the hell are you facing that is blasting your doors off like that.

If you don't have Fade to Black or Ninja Vanish I recommend it for a Brute Force build.  Blast your way into a Host and go *poof*, much fun. 

Sprites, Sprites, Sprites, and always know your objective. 

If you're in a Host make sure your Crack Sprite has Suppression ready to go.  The bad thing about Hosts is the waves of unlimited IC if you get busted, so be sure you can turn off the waves. 

Resonance Veil is for Spiders.  Spider shows up, hit them with Resonance Veil and move on.  "The Host just went offline" or "An AI Persona is trying to hack his Deck and steal it" or whatever.  You should, with a wave of your hand, send a Spider running for a while.

Progressions to consider.  Puppeteer CF.  Hacking, Cybercombat, or even Software Skill Specializations to cover what you need.  Echo, Skinlink is #1, but Program [Smoke and Mirrors] is pretty awesome.

Gear.  If you don't have Rating 6 Fresnel Fabric yet, run, don't walk to your nearest Armorer or Fixer contact and get some.  Now.  And don't forget it has a Wireless bonus.

Well, Brute Force makes me nervous (doesn't it auto-reveal you?).  All our runs are pretty much black trench-coat, against overwhelming odds, such that detection = failure (not always but 80% of the time).  The rest of the build is not that significant (or I should say useful).  I built him for fun, and as my first character, none-optimal.  I don't have Ninja Vanish or Fade.  But I do have Otaku.  The one-shots were easy.  I miss one hack-on-the-fly, get a mark, and the rank 8 host with 11 firewall hits me with a Data Spike for 10 net hits (With a WP of 5, I only get 10 defense dice and the 2 edge rolls were used in the previous 10 rolls, getting me this far). 

I do use Suppression.  But that doesn't help against spiders (just IC).  Thanks for the Resonance Veil idea to distract Spiders.  I am not sure about mechanics here.  How are they distracted?  For how long?  You see, we play in a big group with rotating GMs, so the variance on rules/challenges is really high.  5ed does a poor job in being specific, and puts too much burden on the GM in my opinion (not to derail).

On my list to get:  Puppeteer CF.  Hacking (already 6) , Cybercombat (only 2), or even Software (already 6) with no specializations.  As far as, Skinlink, I will probably knuckle under and get a bunch of bioware, and a datajack.

I had not had a need for  Fresnel Fabric yet, (middle lifestyle) but I will keep it in mind.

Programs; how do you feel about these:
Cat's Paw:  It seems once used, I can pretty much ignore that spider as he has 10 or so negative dice (forever?).
Smoke and mirrors (thanks): I love the combination of this + Fresnel Fabric to offset its noise.  Is that a free 5 sleaze?  Nice!
Biofeedback: Damage the Decker at the same time as his deck (or 2x damage against Technomancers).  Been hit by this.
Fork: I don't get this too much.  Do I get to hit two targets without splitting my dice?
Tantrum: I got hit by this once.  Out of action for 3 turns = death!  I had to be stunned by teammates just to get me out of the Matrix.

[Imladir]

Brute Force doesn't reveal you: if you're running silent, your target knows there's someone out for blood, but not where. Of course, it can raise the alarm, so yeah, most of the time, it's bad. But they don't know where you are. If you're in a level 8 Host straight from chargen, you're asking for trouble. Even an optimised decker would be wary of them...

For Resonance Veil, you can sustain the power indefinitely. So quite a while ^^

[Hobbes]

You have an 8 Charisma TM with only a 2 Cybercombat?   So much wasted potential...   

Anyway, yeah, Brute Force doesn't give an auto mark, they still have to look for you.  Combine with Ninja Vanish or Fade to Black for much hilarity. 

Okay, in that case your first two things is the Fresnel Fabric armor upgrade for Noise reduction and Program [Smoke and Mirrors] and always have Psyche on board.  Also take a look at the Positive Quality Data Anomaly.  +1 Logic and +1 Intuition for 8 hours or so with no crash is pure win.

Honestly the rest of the Submersions should go straight to stat increases IMO, but really with your Cha get that Cybercombat going after you get Smoke and Mirrors.

And Resonance Veil lasts until they beat it with a Matrix Perception test as long as you're sustaining it.  Much like an illusion spell.