[lokii]

The rose crystal, IMO, fits the description Vasdenjas gave of memory gems in Book of Dragons. Given it's size it probably doesn't hold a lot of information, but what it does hold, if anything, is apparently incredibly important to the immortal elves of the Wyrm Wood. Obviously more than just a shiny bauble, since it's exchange for the everliving flower pissed Alachia off enough to commit her army to the second Theran War.

The Rose Crystal is a memory crystal. That is stated in the Dragons PDF.

But to the argument, Alachia gained the Rose Crystal when the Everliving Flower was stolen. So if she really prized it for its information, then she should have been more happy with this exchange. After all the Flower appears to be less useful, its only known function showing the presence of Dragonkin. (duh ) So I think it was more about the symbolic value.

About Shosara. According to what i have found out by searching the web, it was originally meant to be in Arkhangelsk, but it was retconned to be located in Sweden by Redbrick, who had a supplement in the Works about Shosara, which unfortunately never came out. Whether it was Redbricks idea or the idea originated with FASA i dont known, but it fits with the description of Sweden in Shadows of Europe, where Sweden is also shown to have a high percentage of elves in the population.

Apparently the original Theran map is supposed to be "inaccurate"

Thanks. I have to read up on some of this for the Crossover aspects. Unfortunately the old Red Brick forums are not really preserved in the Internet Archive, few old forums are.

The arrow could point at Arkhangelsk rather than beyond it, given that it's on the margin. It would have to point a bit lower at the tip of the bay to indicate Arkhangelsk directly. Hm, I don't know, Shosara is described as bordered by sea on three sides that would fit with the Kola peninsula not really with the city or the surrounding land. Maybe this was already a misreading of the clues.

but it fits with the description of Sweden in Shadows of Europe, where Sweden is also shown to have a high percentage of elves in the population.

Sweden has 14%, but France has 18%. Overall it seems to be above 10% on average in Northern Europe and tends to be more around 5% in Central to Eastern/Southern Europe. I guess the elf population does have a bit of a Nordic bias (though at 14% I wouldn't call it of the chart).

but as i commented earlier the cover art actually does have a vikingish feel to it, with the shields, weapons, beards, braids and fur lined clothes and the landscape behind them could very easily be a Swedish Fjord.

True.

[RowanTheFox]

About Shosara. According to what i have found out by searching the web, it was originally meant to be in Arkhangelsk, but it was retconned to be located in Sweden by Redbrick, who had a supplement in the Works about Shosara, which unfortunately never came out. Whether it was Redbricks idea or the idea originated with FASA i dont known, but it fits with the description of Sweden in Shadows of Europe, where Sweden is also shown to have a high percentage of elves in the population.

Apparently the original Theran map is supposed to be "inaccurate"

Whether FASA's upcoming Elven Nations will follow this decision or change it Again remains to be seen, but as i commented earlier the cover art actually does have a vikingish feel to it, with the shields, weapons, beards, braids and fur lined clothes and the landscape behind them could very easily be a Swedish Fjord. Now people have mixed feelings about this naturally, personally i like it, i like that they  spread the cultures and Places more out geographically, it makes the ED World seem larger and less insular tbh.

There's also RL evidence that elves hung around for quite a while in Scandinavia. Ljosalfar, who are described in the sagas as exceptionally tall, fair-skinned, fair-haired, and usually blue-eyed elves who seem fairly aloof about humans. Now, who does that sound like?

*cough* Ehran *cough*

Ahem, sorry. Seem to have a bit of a tickle in my throat. 

[Rosa]

Well thats true, but you only described half of them, in norse mythology you also have the Dökkálfar ( Dark Elves ), which are dark skinned and live in the earth in Svartalfheimr.

[RowanTheFox]

Well thats true, but you only described half of them, in norse mythology you also have the Dökkálfar ( Dark Elves ), which are dark skinned and live in the earth in Svartalfheimr.

I'm aware of the Dokkalfar (I'm Asatru, for Odin's sake! Lol). I was referring specifically to the Ljosalfar. The Dokkalfar could easily be other elves like Aina.

[Rosa]

Well thats true, but you only described half of them, in norse mythology you also have the Dökkálfar ( Dark Elves ), which are dark skinned and live in the earth in Svartalfheimr.

I'm aware of the Dokkalfar (I'm Asatru, for Odin's sake! Lol). I was referring specifically to the Ljosalfar. The Dokkalfar could easily be other elves like Aina.

Indeed.

Well in order to not veer too much of course, then i will return to the question of "The Western Kingdoms". If Shosara has been retconned to be in Sweden, where does that put "The Western Kingdoms", especially since they are mentioned in the lineup for "Elven Nations" separately from Sereatha and Shosara, this is why i say that it is somewhere West of Sweden and that pretty much leaves very few Places in Europe, and of those Places it fits best with the British Isles in my opinion, but maybe it's because i'm reading too much SR into it.

[RowanTheFox]

Well thats true, but you only described half of them, in norse mythology you also have the Dökkálfar ( Dark Elves ), which are dark skinned and live in the earth in Svartalfheimr.

I'm aware of the Dokkalfar (I'm Asatru, for Odin's sake! Lol). I was referring specifically to the Ljosalfar. The Dokkalfar could easily be other elves like Aina.

Indeed.

Well in order to not veer too much of course, then i will return to the question of "The Western Kingdoms". If Shosara has been retconned to be in Sweden, where does that put "The Western Kingdoms", especially since they are mentioned in the lineup for "Elven Nations" separately from Sereatha and Shosara, this is why i say that it is somewhere West of Sweden and that pretty much leaves very few Places in Europe, and of those Places it fits best with the British Isles in my opinion, but maybe it's because i'm reading too much SR into it.

That would be most likely, IMO.

[lokii]

Well in order to not veer too much of course, then i will return to the question of "The Western Kingdoms". If Shosara has been retconned to be in Sweden, where does that put "The Western Kingdoms", especially since they are mentioned in the lineup for "Elven Nations" separately from Sereatha and Shosara

Ah, you mean this:

Elven Nations - sourcebook covering the Blood Wood, Shosara, Sereatha, and the former Western Kingdoms, now known as the Wastes

Well, I assume Sereatha is named separately because it's the one place of the Western Kingdoms that is not "the Wastes". Anyway those begin west of Barsaive, unless they mean different Wastes that would still be the stretch of land between the Baltic coast and Barsaive.

By the way while there have always been claims that many elven nations exist, the only two places that ever get mentioned by name and get a bit of a description are Shosara and Sereatha. It would be really nice if Elven Nations could go beyond that and at least name a few more.


I thought Svartalfen are dwarves.

[RowanTheFox]

I thought Svartalfen are dwarves.

Yes, also no. According to Norse Mythology, they're Dwarves, but the ancient Norse also had a very different definition of what a Dwarf is. In their mythology, the only major difference between them and the elves is their skin/hair color and where they live. Each saga describes them slightly differently, but that's the gist of it.

So Norse Dwarves are very different from what you usually picture when you see the word "Dwarf". Dokkalfar literally means "Dark Elves".

[Rosa]

I thought Svartalfen are dwarves.

Yes, also no. According to Norse Mythology, they're Dwarves, but the ancient Norse also had a very different definition of what a Dwarf is. In their mythology, the only major difference between them and the elves is their skin/hair color and where they live. Each saga describes them slightly differently, but that's the gist of it.

So Norse Dwarves are very different from what you usually picture when you see the word "Dwarf". Dokkalfar literally means "Dark Elves".

The Dark Elves = Dwarves is one of several possible interpretations. I actually wrote my final thesis at university about the elves in norse mythology, and while this is not the time or place for a lengthy discussion about this subject i can outline the 3 main interpretations.

1: Dark Elves = Dwarves
2: Dark Elves vs. Light Elves is an invention of Snorri's Edda since it only figures there and is therefore likely a christian influence.
3: Elves = Vanir, spirits/deities that are linked to both fertility and death. Hence the separation of dark and light eleves could Refer to those vanir that stayed 
    behind in Vanaheim and to those that went with Njord, Freya and Freyr to go live in Alfheimr in Asgard at the conclusion of their war with the Aesir.

@lokii. Can you point to where it is established that Sereatha is part of the Western Kingdoms, because it doesn't seem like they are the same and i don't remember reading something that led me to that conclusion either?

[RowanTheFox]

I thought Svartalfen are dwarves.

Yes, also no. According to Norse Mythology, they're Dwarves, but the ancient Norse also had a very different definition of what a Dwarf is. In their mythology, the only major difference between them and the elves is their skin/hair color and where they live. Each saga describes them slightly differently, but that's the gist of it.

So Norse Dwarves are very different from what you usually picture when you see the word "Dwarf". Dokkalfar literally means "Dark Elves".

The Dark Elves = Dwarves is one of several possible interpretations. I actually wrote my final thesis at university about the elves in norse mythology, and while this is not the time or place for a lengthy discussion about this subject i can outline the 3 main interpretations.

1: Dark Elves = Dwarves
2: Dark Elves vs. Light Elves is an invention of Snorri's Edda since it only figures there and is therefore likely a christian influence.
3: Elves = Vanir, spirits/deities that are linked to both fertility and death. Hence the separation of dark and light eleves could Refer to those vanir that stayed 
    behind in Vanaheim and to those that went with Njord, Freya and Freyr to go live in Alfheimr in Asgard at the conclusion of their war with the Aesir.

Shame you probably live nowhere near me. I could discuss the complexities of Norse mythology (as well as a few others) over coffee or tea for DAYS.

[lokii]

@lokii. Can you point to where it is established that Sereatha is part of the Western Kingdoms, because it doesn't seem like they are the same and i don't remember reading something that led me to that conclusion either?

Sure, I mentioned the example of Queen Failla. This portion is from The Blood Wood p.29 and refers to her:

During her years in the Western Kingdoms she had ardently adhered to the ways of the Elven Court, down to the smallest details of dress and the pronunciation of words; under her stewardship, the city of Sereatha had been dubbed "the Little Court" for its strong likeness to the Court at Wyrm Wood.

But even more clear p.40:

Alachia hails from Sereatha, the City of Spires, in the Western Kingdoms.

[Rosa]

@lokii. Can you point to where it is established that Sereatha is part of the Western Kingdoms, because it doesn't seem like they are the same and i don't remember reading something that led me to that conclusion either?

Sure, I mentioned the example of Queen Failla. This portion is from The Blood Wood p.29 and refers to her:

During her years in the Western Kingdoms she had ardently adhered to the ways of the Elven Court, down to the smallest details of dress and the pronunciation of words; under her stewardship, the city of Sereatha had been dubbed "the Little Court" for its strong likeness to the Court at Wyrm Wood.

But even more clear p.40:

Alachia hails from Sereatha, the City of Spires, in the Western Kingdoms.

Thanks, it does seem pretty clear cut. I Wonder what they will do with that now though, i mean with the original placement of Shosara, the name "Western kingdoms" made sense, now it just seems a bit odd, to name something western kingdoms, when it isn't the westernmost kingdom with Shosara's retconned placement in Sweden. I Wonder if there's more retconning in the book or if they just keep silent about it, and i still find it odd that they mention Seratha and the western kingdoms as two separate Places in the lineup for the book.....ahh well....patience Young padawan.

[lokii]

Something that fits our Norse-Elf-connection from Dragons of the Sixth World p.155-156:

> Unless my research is mistaken. Cipher Hunter is actually Dr. Barbara Schoepke, formally of the University of Berlin's Archeology Department. Most of her research centered on tying artifacts and Norse legends to the Awakening. She proposed the theory that the ancient Norse heroes were actually elves in a previous age.
> Study Hound

> That explains why the Atlantean Foundation has been spending so much time digging up Norse artifacts.
> Konwacht

[RowanTheFox]

Something that fits our Norse-Elf-connection from Dragons of the Sixth World p.155-156:

> Unless my research is mistaken. Cipher Hunter is actually Dr. Barbara Schoepke, formally of the University of Berlin's Archeology Department. Most of her research centered on tying artifacts and Norse legends to the Awakening. She proposed the theory that the ancient Norse heroes were actually elves in a previous age.
> Study Hound

> That explains why the Atlantean Foundation has been spending so much time digging up Norse artifacts.
> Konwacht

This is why I brought Brisingamen into my stories. Glad to know I'm not the only one who made that connection. 

[Rosa]

Something that fits our Norse-Elf-connection from Dragons of the Sixth World p.155-156:

> Unless my research is mistaken. Cipher Hunter is actually Dr. Barbara Schoepke, formally of the University of Berlin's Archeology Department. Most of her research centered on tying artifacts and Norse legends to the Awakening. She proposed the theory that the ancient Norse heroes were actually elves in a previous age.
> Study Hound

> That explains why the Atlantean Foundation has been spending so much time digging up Norse artifacts.
> Konwacht

Oooh Nice catch! I remember reading this when i bought the book, but at the time i wasn't aware of the Whole Sweden=Shosara, so it didn't carry the same meaning as it does now.