[markc]

(Constructive comment)

One thing I was a bit disappointed at in looking through 5e was the fact that there were no weights listed for equipment. Is there a reason for this?

In the past other game companies have said they were trying to simplify things and that often people did not track total weight so that is why they dropped them from the rules. But often have the same caveat as the GM has to decide if the PC is simply carrying too much weight and should provide a penalty.  The problem here is that if the GM does not have some type of reference how can they competently guess the weight of various things and create items out of exotic alloys and special materials to reduce such weight for custom items?

Also having the weights listed would help if a situation occurs in which a PC has to move 24 panther cannons by hand and determining how much of a struggle it would be. And if they have a ST of 6 vs a ST of 1 does it make a difference in the time it takes? ie can a ST 6 PC easily move 2 at a time where the ST 1 person struggles with 1 panther cannon?

Are there plans to include weights in the future for items?
Thanks
MDC

[Reaver]

Shadowrun hasn't included weights for anything for a LONG time... So long I want to say "forever", and am too lazy to open up my 1e book....

The reason you listed is the standard generic response many game companies have given for dropping weights from their stats.... and they are not wrong, calculating weights has always been a tedious and boring thing to do in a game system.... Not to mention frustrating...

"Your party has slain the dragon! Good job! You see the vast horde of coins and items before you... Too bad you can only take a small fraction of it all due to the weight of your current equipment."

Not to mention that the weights many of these games (and your carrying capacity), are arbitrary values that they has assigned, and in some cases are not that accurate or introduce problems of their own. Take old skool DnD fro example. Under the old 2e rules a warrior needed a strength a 15 to wear full plate armor, a shield, and a sword without penalty, yet thanks to documentation of history and history re-enactors we know that this is a LARGE error.... (a strength of 15 in 2e DnD meant you could bench press around 300 pounds... not too many people can do that today) So now, after I imagine is years of receiving random letters and Emails complaining of encumberance and weights, many companies just hand wave it and say "up to the GM".... which may be a type of "passing the buck", but is probably something that makes more people happy then angry. (I know it does me!)

Would having weights of items help? Yes and No. Often it is not the weight of the items that matters, but the manner and way they are held and 'attached' to the human body, which is something that gets really hard for games to work out in a realistic way. For example, when I have to do High Elevation work, I have to wear safety equipment on top of the tools I normally have to carry around. Between my tools and the safety gear, I am packing around 100 to 130 pounds of equipment.... Yet because of the way the weight is distuributed across my body thanks to my tool harnesses and cases I can work a 10 hour day with little fatigue from the weight. (and no, I am not an overly large and strong person. I stand 6 feet and weigh 180lbs with a nice little mini keg around my waist!)

If you REALLY want to add weights of items to your game, go ahead and do so, the random, arbitrary values you assign to items would be of the same probable values that writers assign, if you take the time to do a little research into the items you want weight for... For example, the average weight of an assault rifle is around 8 lbs.... With some as light as 4 lbs and some as heavy as 22lbs. Pistols weigh anything from 4 ounces for a small hold out, to 6 lbs for a large caliber hand cannon. A long coat weights between 2 pounds of a cloth or linin version to 12 pounds for a leather a canvas one (which means an armored one would weigh even more?)

Now, as to moving things, well yes, I would imagine having a direct value would help, but then that just adds another level of complexity to slow down the game as people crunch numbers to determine how much of what they can move in X given time, when the GM can just hand wave it in a couple of seconds with some baseline info, and move the plot of the adventure along. Will the GM's hand waving be accurate? That doesn't really matter as it really has no bearing on the plot of the adventure, unless your whole adventure is your character being a pack mule and earning credit for how much weight he moves and how far.... The Gm's hand waving will suit the needs of the time for the most part - as long as it is a rational value, made with a rational reason. <which can be hard to find.... Rational Thought is a lost art these days it seems>

I wouldn't expect weights to be added EVER. And in fact, I would expect to see more games drop it and encumberance in the future... The computer gaming industry already has except for a small hand full of titles - and even those follow a very simplified version! (Bethseda games doesn't track the weight the ammo... be it bullets or arrows.)
 

[markc]

Reaver,
Maybe that is where I remember them from my SR1 and 2 books and for the fact that we used those weapon description and ported them to many other game systems.
  In fact it is one of the reasons that we (group) tended to buy other company's stuff for our use with other/home brew systems. I jumped away from the SR system back in the 90's and moved to another system in search of more realism.
 In the later case I can say that is why I picked up SR3 and all core books and SR4; for the cyber/bio/gene to use with another system and I did not notice the weights were gone so i will have to go back and check my physical books when I have the chance.

I may be in the minority but I think it leave out a group of RP'ers that like a little more realism vs hand waving.
The values are easily removed from calculating do to the fact you include them on the PC sheet.
The authors/writers is one of the main reasons I have seen it being dropped from many rules and it is easier to write then write and use math, engineering, mech, etc skills as well as predicting the future is hard. ie I do not think back in 2000 we could have predicted the shrinkage of memory but I did see a lot of predictions that we would have had news paper like clear screens by 2005-2008 that quite a few sci-fy shows have.
  I agree it is not easy but IMHO it also is not good to leave them out, almost lazy.
I also agree that often GM's and players do not track weights or the GM every so often asks the players to recalculate weights as time has moved on and great equipment changes have happened.
  But at the same time you are possibly ignoring the super human benefits of some stats vs normal benefits or subnormal benefits of stats for some PC's.
  You are putting extra pressure on the GM to make snap calls for moving/carrying stuff and possible arguments during play as well as compelling reasons to have a score of X vs just a dice pool or some other bonus.
   I am sure that at 12 or 13 when I was running SR 1 and if there were no weights I would have ruled a lot differently and if I was running SR 1 at 20, 35 and 45 I would probably rule quite differently on moving weights also.   

I also understand the thrust of many game companies into the easy realm (see point above) as simply writing is easier than creating solid rules and most of the really good solid rules guy are now working for video game companies for big $$ and thus not working for small $$ at Pen and Pager RPG companies.
Also in general it is always better to have a rule in place with the note that many people ignore such a thing (such as recalculating weights after each round fired from a gun) vs not having the rules for reference in the first place.

(Also I think you can tell that I am not a fan of rules lite systems and IMHO there flaws often outweigh there gains in my book.)

Thanks
MDC   

[MijRai]

I'm one of those people who prefer to have weights and carrying capacities and all that, myself.  I think it SHOULD be a problem to haul home that dragon's hoard, because of the sheer value.  Figuring out ways to take more of it (jury-rigging a travois, hiring a wagon, maaagic, what-have-you) is great.  Provided that's what you accept is a part of being a murder-hobo going around and taking peoples' stuff.  Other games it is a little less necessary (Shadowrun is one of them), but I still consider weight to be something you want to know. 

[markc]

Thinking back on it I think that was one of the reasons we moved away from SR rules and started adapting stuff to other systems. Which lead to us eventually dropping SR rule set entirely and moving almost completely to another system for everything.
MDC

[markc]

Reaver,
Arbitrary Argument:
I do not think your arbitrary argument holds a lot of weight as there are a lot of other arbitrary stuff in the game. What? Well stats to numbers, magic to numbers, skills to numbers and combat just to name the ones that jumped into my head.

Doing a quick check (because the books are on my shelf)  my second edition and third edition have weights included for the tables that I glanced at. But I in no way did a through search or look through as I am pressed for time today. I will do a better look through later.
  So it must be 4th but as I said I need to look closer when I have more time allotted.
MDC

[Reaver]

Yes games require a lot of arbitrary things.

That's not the point I was making. The point I was making is that many games are moving away from a calculated encumberance system in favor of just handwaving it..... unless there is something important going on.

Many systems that do include an encumberance system have their forums (and from that, one can only assume their 'help/FAQ channels - for those that still have them)  filled with questions and arguments over it.... And many of the arguments are the same (waste of time... doesn't make sense...not 'real' enough.... yadda yadda).


Does it suck for those that liked that level of detail? Yes it does. But getting rid of encumberance is what many customers have asked for, so....


*****

I did a quick check myself and yea, weights were in up at least 2e. I didn't gave a 3e book handy to check, but they (weights) were gone by the time FanPro took over with 4e.

[markc]

Reaver,
I think you and I play in vastly different groups and styles, which is fine and great for the game. A game that supports many styles is a much better game IMHO.
But having said that it is generally easier to leave out a rule than it is to create rules from scratch for most people.
  So are not the authors throwing away customers who want said rules and can any game company afford to do so for so little effort? (The space consideration is not a lot by my looking at the books at worst you would have to change the font size)

(Not trying to say that any of these issues are SR issues as I know authors have a lot of stuff to deal with and often get paid very little $$$ and have little time to finish projects)
Waste of time, not real enough:
IMHO yes I have see some enc rules that are way off (or very arbitrary) but for the most part the issues that I have seen where authors who did not want to create (or who did not know a good way how) said rules. Again this may be just my experience but I have been involved with a few games in my years and have been lucky enough to have some frank discussions with said authors. I remember a few saying that do to their rules system they just could not find a good way to make it work with equal parts getting the blame (staff ability and rules decisions)

I also still stand by my point of that it is nice to have some idea of the weight of things as it allows the GM to judge better if a PC can move 1 thing or 10 of those things. And to ensure consistency over multiple games and groups. ie prevents a new play at a Con seeing it ruled one way and then having it ruled another way at a home game.

I also think that we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point.
I can also say that I have not bought 5E but am borrowing in the books to play in a game (which we had a very fun session last time re-learning the rules) and not having said simple rule such as weights is a mark in the negative column for me.
IIRC, when most of the group I played with else where talked about Enc and the fact that the books were leaving it out it was about a 4-5 to 1 in a vote to have the rules as it made things easier even if we did not keep hyper-track of equipment weight.

Thanks
MDC

[Whiskeyjack]

Is there a reason for this?

This system is frankly too granular as it is. Adding this would create even more low-value rules bloat.

[MijRai]

I'd pay a couple bucks for a couple-page PDF that just gave a weight to every piece of equipment and some optional rules for use of those who want to be granular.  Toss on a weight modification chart for the different metatypes as needed. 

[markc]

Sorry I have been struggling with some tech issues since I switched internet providers.

I agree that there are lots of granularity and obviously there are lot of simpler games out there is that is your desire. The question is does eliminating weight vastly simplify the game and how many people may not buy the game if it does not have said rules.
How much space? 1 or 2 paragraphs on stat, race and weight carry rules and 1 column in the various charts for weight of items. IMHO not a lot of waste vs the problems it solves (ie when I play a troll vs a human just how much more weight can I carry? Can the troll pick up the injured dwarf and just run with him? Can the human? etc also if said rules were in place it takes a decision the GM does not have to make out of the picture and prevents the Gm from saying yes one time and no another time as well as table variance. 

IIRC, I also noticed that vehicles still have fuel consumption. Would that not be a easy place to cut? IIRC, in the past it was one of the areas we often just waved our hands.
MDC 

[Beta]

I think they made the game design thoughts about weight pretty clear.  Somewhere (I think in the gear chapter, before they start listing the gear), there is a few lines saying that as long as characters are not trying to carry all the guns and toasters, and enough ammo and bread to operate them all for months, don’t worry about weight.

That said, I’d think most tables would frown on strength 1 characters firing full on machine guns, pixies with assault rifles, and the like.  But mechanically they just didn’t try to say ‘it takes this much size and strength to use this gear’ or actual weights and encumbrance levels. 

For a game that has as much detail as it does about equipment, it does feel a bit odd at times, but at the same time I don’t think I’ve ever played in a game that enforced encumbrance rules barring extreme situations.

[markc]

Omae,
I agree on the paragraph saying what you said but that does not really help with table variance and how GM's would rule do to str, Bod and race. In fact the paragraph does not really even talk about stats or race in any way it just says be reasonable. Which can mean a lot of different things to different GM's and players. 

I tried to pick an extreme example to show how much trouble it could have, but I also like your pixies with assault riffles.

MDC

[Reaver]

Omae,
I agree on the paragraph saying what you said but that does not really help with table variance and how GM's would rule do to str, Bod and race. In fact the paragraph does not really even talk about stats or race in any way it just says be reasonable. Which can mean a lot of different things to different GM's and players. 

I tried to pick an extreme example to show how much trouble it could have, but I also like your pixies with assault riffles.

MDC

See, this is where the other side of the problem comes in that many companies are trying to avoid

Now, not only do you want a straight STR+BOD = X carry weight, you now want them to factor in the mass of the race in question.... This is not a paragraph or two and a simple chart... this is a paragraph PER race AND a chart which works out to probably a page, maybe two. And while that may not sound like much, if it already costs the copy/customer an average of $0.25 a page, it adds up. (Arrived at by taking my purchase price of SG at $59.99/231 pages, Run faster purchase price $59.99/253 pages, Run and Gun $69.99/213 pages. Averaged out)

And that doesn't include the said headaches that would entail from all the whining and crying some customers would do over the fact that their Pixie can NEVER move more then a bowling ball because of the body/str/size of a pixie, or that the Troll can bench press a car -one handed, because of the same rules.

now, believe it or not, I am not picking on you (Go look up my 'Pixie with Guns: with picture!' post in character creation from a year ago, You'll see that I am sort of on your side here!), And my table has sat down and house ruled out some basic carry weights for characters due to mass and size. (We are all Industrial construction workers, so we see EVERYTHING in terms of numbers and weights, so its a given at our table) We even have rules for harnesses and combat webbing! Because we are anal. We just don't need it printed in a book and charged to us when WE probably have a better idea of the tolerances of strength, mass and the human body then the writers do seeing as we live this stuff everyday, 12 hours a day, 26 days a month. (We industrial construction workers are some of the most 'practical S-M-R-T people' you can meet... Even the Iron-head with they walnut sized brains (with swelling).

For example I stand 6 feet tall, weigh 180 lbs. I am 42 years old and NOT particularly muscular. I drink. I smoke.  I would say my SR stats are STR 3 and BOD 3. Which in SR terms I can carry 30KG of gear with out effort.
Now, lets look at what I actually DID (in real life) today....

I set up Stanton lighting on the very top of and FAS stack, the Stanton light weighs 65 pounds. The stack is 8 stories high (88 feet), which means I need to wear fall arrest gear which weighs at 47 pounds for the harness, hardhat, lanyard, beam-buddy, and shock absorber. To actually hook up the light to the base I require 5 tools for a total weight of 30 pounds. And that's on top of all the extra clothing I need to wear, as this is an ACTIVE SMELTER! (Fire proof level 6 - heat reflective one piece jumper 45 pounds. emergency oxygen mask and tank 18 pounds)

total weight: 205Lbs. OR 93Kg.

And since I did that eight times in twelve hours, I would say I wasn't overly Stressed.

So... by SR standards I am either Augmented or drugged out to the Gils. A well built Troll, Or their numbers are WAY off... As what I did for an average day would take a strength of 9 in the SR world..

Now, the reason I can do my job is that the total weight of everything but the light is even dispersed over my total body thanks to a series of webbing and strapping. It's the Stanton light (only) that is a pain in the ass, awkward and tiring to carry.

This all just gets too complex to write out in a simple little paragraph or two, and invites arguments when presented.... Hence why most companies just say "YO! GM! You deal with it as you see fit!".
Is it "Passing the Buck" or "Deferring to a Superior Opinion and Judgement" ? That's up to you to decide.

[markc]

I think you also just proved my point in that you are using real world examples to help run your game and the authors ideal "Shadow World" might be drastically different.

Now I agree a table and such might be too much for the core (I have not worked out the rules and or chart) but a simple set of guidelines derived from those rules would be easy. ie In general Trolls of average Body and ST should be able to carry X.XX Kg, Elves of average Body and ST should be able to carry X.XX kg, etc.
In a supplement where pages can be devoted to more exotic ideas/material the page should be welcome.

I am also thinking back to when I first picked up SR (in the 80's) and played and how we played the game and how new players (my nephews for instance) who I might teach the game to today/tomorrow. If they (12 year old's give or take depending on who is playing) who do not have the breadth of experience your or I do (49) and I have to pull out/print/send email of a work up to fix some of there common questions or problems they had during a game. It can provide a negative reaction on if they will play the game in the future. The same can be said if the 12 year old GM allows said 1 St 1 Bod Human to carry 2 panther cannons because they have 2 arms and it is reasonable to him vs the 12 year old's go to a game run by a 16 year old and are told no they cannot do it because it is not reasonable based on there stats. Something the 12 year old GM did not consider as the book said to use his judgment. 

If you would be willing to share your rules for weight carried I would love to have it and will submit it to the GM to see if he will use it. If not do you know of any rules out there to help people out in this area?
Thanks
MDC