[dposluns]

Maybe I don't know enough Shadowrun lore, but when looking at character creation it always strikes me as odd that you default as SINless, in a future dystopian society where surely they have every biometric data from everyone who was born in a hospital or raised in anything other than an off-the-grid shanty in the woods. I can sort of buy the premise that established runners would have all found ways to shed their SINs, but it would seem to imply that at some point they paid an awful lot of money to a skilled Decker or even team of runners to erase their past for them.

Does anyone have a better framing of it? I sometimes wonder if when choosing a Lifestyle you shouldn't start with a National SIN as the base, and have SINless be a positive quality that you pay Karma for.

[MijRai]

Because most (i.e. almost all) SINless aren't born in hospitals; at least, not official ones.  The Barrens and other poverty-stricken regions are basically off-the-grid shanties.  The Megacorporations don't want to waste the effort there. 

If the Megacorporations and governments paid the money and made the effort to track down the SINless, then they would lose the profit they get by exploiting them in the first place.  Not to mention they could be expected to actually give the SINless rights if they started tracking and identifying them and basically giving them SINs.  As is, the SINless are non-entities, and everyone but the SINless benefits from them being non-entities. 

[Reaver]

MijRai is right.

Economics has a lot to do with it.

Think of a SIN like citizenship (but actually its even more!). If you are a Citizen of a Country, you are protected by its laws, and have access to the services that your country provides, like housing, medical aid, food, employment rights, and education. ALL things that cost a government money.

However, if you are NOT a citizen, you are not entitled to any of those things ( I can't go to the States and get a welfare check, or a job, or even state sponsored housing as I am not a US citizen).

Same thing in SR, without a SIN, you can't prove you are entitled to these things, thus the government doesn't have to spend the money to give you these items.

But a SIN in SR is more then just a Citizenship card... It's a record of your life!

you SIN includes all the details of your life that the government cases to track....

Who your parents are, where you live, where you work, what you earn, what you own, your education level, and even your health! It contains all your permits, licenses and registrations; like your gun permit, your driver's license, your Voter's card, your banking info....

So, with out a SIN, you have no way to prove that you actually exist! No SIN, no birth records... No SIN to employment history, or housing history, or even educational history...

And it THIS level on interwoven complexity that makes it almost impossible to GET a SIN if you don't already have one leading to generations of people without SINs.

After all, without a SIN, your Parents can't rely on a hospital for treatment or even the delivery of a child... And since your parents can't prove that they are citizens, where they live, who they work for and even who raised them, YOU are not eligible for a SIN..... and neither are YOUR children! And on and on the cycle goes.

Most of the those with out SINs are forced to live a life on the fringes of society Working under the table, living in condemned or abandoned housing, and making do with what ever they can grow, steal, or barter for.


How much money do you think your government would save if it turned around and said:

"We are stopping Welfare payments. no longer subsidizing for housing, there are no more Student loans and you must have a job to get medical treatment from a Doctor or Hospital."
 
   

[dposluns]

It helps to view a SIN as less of how you're tracked by the government and more in terms of the privileges it buys you. I guess for me the questions are of economics and control. Shadowrun feels like a world where there's a lot of control over the population, and I would expect SINs to be a big part of that. If SINs are only held by a minority of the population a lot of that control goes away.

What percentage of the population roughly is SINless? If it's a high number, how does that really function to keep an organized society from collapsing in on itself? Because my understanding is even corporate slaves have SINs. Say if half the population of Seattle is SINless, how does Seattle even begin to function? And does it make sense to be a SINless runner and have a lifestyle higher than Squatter?

[Mirikon]

The ratio of SINners to SINless depends on the area, and on your metatype. Live in the Barrens, feral cities, or the middle of nowhere? Almost everyone will be SINless. Live in Bellevue, or some other 'nice' neighborhood? Very, very few SINless (and those that are have really good fakes). Orks and Trolls are far more likely to be SINless than humans, in part because more Orks and Trolls live in those majority SINless areas (and also because of racism).

In the world at large? Some sprawls are nearly impossible to live in without a SIN (Manhattan comes to mind immediately). Others, like Seattle, are merely difficult. Some, like Lagos, are cesspools that would eat SINners alive.

There are plenty of SINners out there, of course. But not everyone has a SIN, and the corps don't WANT everyone to have a SIN. Why? For the same reason that corps use Shadowrunners. Sure, runners cause trouble for them, but they can also cause trouble for the competition, so it is a net win to have them around. Having SINless hellholes within easy view of corp enclaves (and playing up the bad news) is most certainly all about control: controlling their wageslaves. They don't care about the SINless population, because running a country and caring for all the people in it is hard, unprofitable work. And that just isn't good for the bottom line.

I could go on, but suffice to say that there's plenty of reasons for the corps and governments to make sure some people stay SINless.

As for the percentage in Seattle? I'd say somewhere around 10%, just off the top of my head. The bit about runners being SINless by default is confirmation bias. SINners have easier (well, safer) ways of making a living than going around and getting shot at. SINners are too easily tracked for most shadow work. So most of the people you see in the shadows are SINless. Maybe they were born SINless, maybe they lost their SIN when they left their corp, maybe they burned their SIN to go off grid. Whatever the case, most people in the shadows are SINless.

Remember, the books are written from a shadows-centric viewpoint.

[aono]

Well, really economics has nothing to do with it.
First of all, nothing really can make a state or corporation to pay welfare to SINners. They can take such obligation, but what SINners can do if UCAS refuse to pay welfare? They will riot? Well, SINless can riot as well. Corporations makes their workers happy because it's good for business, not because they're obliged to. Using that example with "We are stopping Welfare payments. no longer subsidizing for housing, there are no more Student loans and you must have a job to get medical treatment from a Doctor or Hospital." - imagine how government says it WITHOUT revoking citizenships, obliging to pay taxes and follow the laws. Isn't it possible?
Second, if you want to totally exploit somebody, you want to control him as far as you can. So a thought "corporations leave SINless as they are because they want to exploit them" isn't correct. Corporations want to exploit their wageslaves, and every one wageslave has a SIN.
So in total dystopia, where corporations and governments want to eat every one man alive to make max profits, you'll expect full SIN coverage, even in bad places, sure.

Thing is, Shadowrun world isn't exactly dystopia. You can believe it's kind of "1984" if you're reading all that shadowtalk with anarcho-liberal tendencies, but really corporations just don't give a shit about all that guys who lived in Barrens.
Of course a thought "all but SINless have a profit form SINless being SINless" is incorrect. Shadowrunners takes a lot form being SINless. SINless people are free, you can't really made them to oblige laws or pay taxes. It's quite an anarchy experiment, and a lot of people love such matter of living.
Not everybody, of course. But every shadowrunner, generated by rules, can obtain a SIN just by taking a solid work with a corp. Street nobody troll from rulebook examples have 9 dices in shooting (and SIN), it's corporate police vets level, and I don't even start about that mage and technomancer he is teamed with. They are competent enough.
But, as I said before, Shadowrun isn't a world of total totalitarian control, so if a competent man don't want to sell himhelf to corporation... well, most of corps aren't really intrested in your soul, they can't resell it. When shadowrunners crying about a lot of control and about offies wish to control them, let's not forgot it's criminals crying.

But a majority have SIN anyway.
UCAS at whole have estimated SINless population of 30%, and it's the one of worst (or best, depend who you asking) ratio for North America.
AMC have 21%, Athabaska - 25%, CalFree - 32%, Confederation - 20%, Denver - 15%, Pueblo - 8%, Quebec - 18%, SSC - 15%, Siux - 15%, Tir - 8% (oh it's tricky), Tsimshian - 11%, Ute - 23%. It's '60 data, I don't see why that numbers should change drastically. For Siux I can say for sure it's that 15%.
Seattle is kind of different snowflake - it's a world capital of intercorporation politics and shadowrunning. There are Redmond, Puyallup or Underground, with 23%, 18% and 7% respectively for corporate SINners, and I believe you can safely twice (or even more!) a number with national and criminal ones. But in most regions you'll have something around 75% for corporate SINners, not to mention nationals and criminals.
(Shadows of the North America, based in '60th, gives estimated SINners in demography block, but most of modern books gives only Corporate Affiliation number, so excuse me for this imprecision.)

In global dynamics you can expect two different trends.
Governments will go for maxing SINners ratio, because more people means more taxes and more manpower (for army or work). That's not mean everybody will have free SIN, sure, or that every SINner will have a free welfare plan, but essentially governments wants more SINners.
Corporations will go for lessening national SINners ratio, because they can't have money from it and national SINs are useful for governments (and it's always bad for big buisness). They will give their corporate SIN for everybody working for them (yes, wageslaves included, sure), but everybody else - no, they don't need to track them. Why? It's not a question for total control for them (nobody wants it), or for full exploitiation for every last drek in a street.

How can you keep an organized society from collapsing in on itself with such numbers of dark population? One word - badly. Non-corporate enclaves in Sixth World are not very organized, if you are not living in some place as Tir Taingire.

[Reaver]

@Anon:

Ask Greece. This is the boat they are in right now. Their Socialists governments promised everything AND the moon.... but forgot they actually had to PAY for it.....

And now the government can't afford to keep its promises nor its hugh social network of services.

Even if they had ALL their debts forgiven, they would be right back where they are now because their Social Services are 110% of their GDP and that's before you consider other government expenses like infrastructure, payroll, health services, etc....

[aono]

Yeah. That's because we're living in a world where answer with military force is wrong answer. If Greece just refuse to pay debts and give welfare, they will meet their credit rating on the floor, and if they use military forces to punish protestors later... well, Gaddafi knows what happens next.
But in Sixth World what bad will happen if you just refuse people welfare and kill all that protestors with lethal force? It was the start of corporation independence, after all, Seretech clause.

I'm living in a country where prime minister can say pensioners "we have no money, keep calm and be happy" (it's direct cite), and he stays in office. And his party takes 49% on parlament elections, and that means (we have funny election system) they have 76% votes in parlament.
I don't really believe UCAS system as it described in rulebooks is very much better.

[Reaver]

All I can tell you is my company is STILL waiting for $270 million in payments from Greece for work we did in 2011. And we are currently suing them for either private ownership of the Port we did upgrades to OR the $270 million plus 6 years interest.....


As the case is going now, looks like we will end up with private ownership.

[aono]

All I can tell you is my company is STILL waiting for $270 million in payments from Greece for work we did in 2011. And we are currently suing them for either private ownership of the Port we did upgrades to OR the $270 million plus 6 years interest.....

Sorry, I believe we don't understand each other.
You're speaking about situation where government TRIED to give their citizens full welfare packet and failed. Yeah, that happens. It isn't writed on the wall though, Nordic states mostly happen to make it happen, but really welfare is costly, no arguing here.
I'm speaking about situation where government DOESN'T EVEN TRY to give their citizens ANY welfare (or gives a little for them to live), and destroys every riot with lethal force.

[Reaver]

All I can tell you is my company is STILL waiting for $270 million in payments from Greece for work we did in 2011. And we are currently suing them for either private ownership of the Port we did upgrades to OR the $270 million plus 6 years interest.....

Sorry, I believe we don't understand each other.
You're speaking about situation where government TRIED to give their citizens full welfare packet and failed. Yeah, that happens. It isn't writed on the wall though, Nordic states mostly happen to make it happen, but really welfare is costly, no arguing here.
I'm speaking about situation where government DOESN'T EVEN TRY to give their citizens ANY welfare (or gives a little for them to live), and destroys every riot with lethal force.

Don't have to look far, Chad, Ghana, Somalia are all countries with non-existent social programs, mass unrest and "disappearing" protestors.

[Whiskeyjack]

A lot of people also lost their SINs in the big Matrix crashes.

[aono]

Don't have to look far, Chad, Ghana, Somalia are all countries with non-existent social programs, mass unrest and "disappearing" protestors.

My point exactly.
No mystical power really oblige states to give welfare. That's why arguement "hey, if states gives all that SINless SINs, they will obliged to give them welfare!" is invalid - having citizenship and having any civil rights aren't really linked.

Let me put it that way:
 

If you are a Citizen of a Country, you are protected by its laws, and have access to the services that your country provides, like housing, medical aid, food, employment rights, and education. ALL things that cost a government money.

Really you are not. If you're citizen of a country, you are SUBJECT of this country laws. IF they said you're protected and have a right for services - good for you. IF they don't - well, you're screwed. And if government don't really depends on citizens (let's say it have good corporation backing with private armies), they won't initiate welfare programs - until citizens have enough force to make them.
Also being a subject of this country laws you are the first money source for the government - tax payer.

A lot of people also lost their SINs in the big Matrix crashes.

In the second only - first Crash happened in '29, 7 years before SIN system was implemented.
Also truth to be said Crash 2.0 gives SIN system not so big problem. There were offline servers and biodata storage, and the problem to solve was to restore system; some people just thought it's too much hassle for nothing.

[Reaver]

You're a little off Anon.

You are always subject to the laws of the country you are in. Even if you are not a citizen and just visiting. BUT being a citizen opens other rights that non-citzens do not have.

Even though I worked in Ghana for 18 months, I was not allowed to vote, was not allowed a water ration (had to pay for every liter in stead of the 60 free liters a month) was not allowed to purchase property....

I was was also framing it in a way many readers here could understand, as I doubt VERY much that anyone on this forum comes from such a country. (Tabletop gaming is an expensive hobby, and I doubt very much people are going to pay what amounts to almost a year's salary on an imaginary game when that money has to buy food, clothing, shelter, etc.)

The programs many people know from the western world of docial services are not there any more. And that is something many players forget.


I doubt very that those that lost a SIN during the crash 2.0 felt 'it wasn't worth the hassle for nothing' considering with out a SIN they can't access their banking, not hold a job, buy food or even rent a coffin motel.... more likely they fought like hell to get their SINs back.... but there just wasn't anything left of the info, or lacked a way to 'prove' they had a SIN.


Let me put it this way:
Are you willing to give up everything you own (right down to the electronic device you are reading this on) and any hope of having more then an occasionally daily labor job AND live on the streets with no shelter?

I doubt it..... yet that is what you are implying many did. They gave up EVERYTHING over a 'hassle'.

[aono]

You are always subject to the laws of the country you are in. Even if you are not a citizen and just visiting. BUT being a citizen opens other rights that non-citzens do not have.

Not exactly. You can be visitor into USA, that don't mean you should pay taxes there, for example; or be entitled to serve if mobilization happen. And you need to make some real crimes to be really incarcerated by USA police, not to be sent away with visa annuled. Well, USA is known as a country that not very scrupulous for this matters, but anyway.

Even though I worked in Ghana for 18 months, I was not allowed to vote, was not allowed a water ration (had to pay for every liter in stead of the 60 free liters a month) was not allowed to purchase property....

True. Not being a citizen is limiting. That don't mean that being a citizen ISN'T limiting or give you only privilegies.

The programs many people know from the western world of docial services are not there any more. And that is something many players forget.

I believe players shouldn't forgot it, to be honest.
Also I'm living in a country (and I'm playing tabletops here) with median pension with 200 USD, and our country calls itself "social state".

I doubt very that those that lost a SIN during the crash 2.0 felt 'it wasn't worth the hassle for nothing' considering with out a SIN they can't access their banking, not hold a job, buy food or even rent a coffin motel.... more likely they fought like hell to get their SINs back.... but there just wasn't anything left of the info, or lacked a way to 'prove' they had a SIN.

That's the word rulebook used. About SINless in Seattle. I can find it. Can't really say which rulebook just now, but I saw it and I believed it's very logical, so I remembered.
Because OF COURSE I'm not willing to give up everything I have just now. I'm scientist, I have stable job (two of them, to be precise), I have property. But I quite remember as I was 18. I haven't nothing. I never used social services. For electronic devices I had ancient notebook my father gave me four years ago. I lived on street or with friends. I believe it was you can call "hard times" (or a life low-level barrens population lives in Shadowrun).
I lost my passport that time. I live in Russia, so it's implying that you NEED a passport. You can't use a hotel, open a bank account, have a car, rent a room, have a work, have a family... Ah, yes. Clinic where I was born was burned forteen years before, so there was not registry of birth. Essentially I was SINless.
I needed to came to police on my registration place, take a proof there, go to military commissariat with it, take another proof there, go to med clinic, complete observation, take proof (of course), return to MC, take another proof, go to register office, take another proof, go to municipality on registration place, take another proof, return to police, give them all that proofs and wait two months (Russia is bureucracy). I wasn't sure I will alive in that two months, and really I worked by daily labour anyway. I was lucky, I lived in a city I was born, registred and schooled - and it can be not a case (once again, you can't buy a ticket to ANY intercity transport without passport). All that movements require a lot of time, a lot of running around, and I had better ways to spent my time.
So I didn't bother for another one-and-half year.
If I lose my passport today, of course, I'll make all this steps ASAP, because if I don't I can't work and live my current life. And that will do any man after Crash 2.0, if he lost something without SIN and want to return it. And so they did, system was essentially restored fastly enough to have a great majority of Seattle population SINners again.
But SINners who don't use their SINs anyway?.. well, they really could not bother.