[Reaver]

Drunkenly pissing on the tire of a cop car in Seattle netted me a long weekend in lockup.

So no, you don't have to do anything major. You just have to break the law.

Punching a cleric in Ghana who attacked ME with with a machete (because I am Kafhar) just about got me SHOT by the police. (Only thing that stopped them was our private para-military security).

[aono]

Are you sure you're not mixing laws, rules of stay, police overzealous and proper procedure?
As I know even USA use to give you right to use a call to your country consulate.

[Reaver]

Call yes. But that doesn't mean your consulate can or WILL do anything, as that can create an international row.

One of the fundamental tenants of a country is the right to create, enforce, and adjucate their rule of Law. To interseed in an other countries' rights is to threaten their sovreignty, basically an act of agression (war).

Most countries have a travel advisory webpage which will inform you of what countries are deemed safe to travel to.

If you pay attention to the news recently, you might have read a story of the female Canaduan professor who was detained, tortured and beaten by the Iranian government for over 3 months. (This is a post interview with her: http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/hoodfar-interview-iran-exclusive-1.3792086)

By your rationale, she should have just been sent home... but she wasn't, she was detained without counsel, mentally abused and taumatized.... because THAT is the way the Law works in Iran, even though such actions are deplorable to Canada. Canada couldn't do anything because that's the legal system of Iran. (Now some back room diplomatic avts did eventually lead to release, but this is not always gauranteed.)

5 years ago, Canada refuse to acknowledge the diplomatic credentials of a filipino diplomat and had him arrested, tried and convicted after it was found out he was sexually abusing Canadian Minors in his home and then using his diplomatic standing into bullying them to keep quiet. The Phillipines screamed bloody murder!

I've traveled to 32 different countries over the years, worked in 16 of them, and been banned from entry in 4. (Can't go back to Greece for 6 more years thanks to a bar fight. Something in Canada that barely ranks a fine, but in Greece carries a 2 year sentence! I took a plea deal. 10 years banned entry to avoid jail)

[aono]

Of course she should have just been sent home!  It's exactly my point. There is a gap between ideal world where everything is operated by laws and strict rules, and a real world with a thousand ways to abuse.
There is a principle of international law, right to defend one country's citizen from abuse from another government, even by military force. Why? Because exactly that tenet you cited before - because country have a right to create, enforce and adjudicate their rule of law, and when one government takes another land citizen and imprison him without that country consent, it's unfriendly act, said country's right to create, enforce and adjudicate their rule of law is damaged. It's the very idea WHY diplomats tried to rescue their citizens from different Irans (or USAs; or Israels; or Russias; or...) - because there is a basic position that citizen of some country is responsibility of said country. Theoretically, another country's citizens are beyond one country jurisdictions.
But Iran, for example, don't give this principle a shit - he have a power to take anybody within it's borders, drop her into prison and let her stays there for over 3 months. Because Canada, ten to one, will try to solve that diplomatically, not by war, and Canada know it, Iran know it, everybody know it. Iranians don't got her because international law allowed it. They got her because they could get her and stay unpunished.

That's exactly same with SINs. You're subject of laws that are works in your SIN country. If you haven't any SIN, you're not a subject to any law. But also you're not protected by any guy with big gun and police marking, no another big guy will come and said "hey, let him alone, he is mine".

[RowanTheFox]

Call yes. But that doesn't mean your consulate can or WILL do anything, as that can create an international row.

One of the fundamental tenants of a country is the right to create, enforce, and adjucate their rule of Law. To interseed in an other countries' rights is to threaten their sovreignty, basically an act of agression (war).

Most countries have a travel advisory webpage which will inform you of what countries are deemed safe to travel to.

If you pay attention to the news recently, you might have read a story of the female Canaduan professor who was detained, tortured and beaten by the Iranian government for over 3 months. (This is a post interview with her: http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/hoodfar-interview-iran-exclusive-1.3792086)

By your rationale, she should have just been sent home... but she wasn't, she was detained without counsel, mentally abused and taumatized.... because THAT is the way the Law works in Iran, even though such actions are deplorable to Canada. Canada couldn't do anything because that's the legal system of Iran. (Now some back room diplomatic avts did eventually lead to release, but this is not always gauranteed.)

5 years ago, Canada refuse to acknowledge the diplomatic credentials of a filipino diplomat and had him arrested, tried and convicted after it was found out he was sexually abusing Canadian Minors in his home and then using his diplomatic standing into bullying them to keep quiet. The Phillipines screamed bloody murder!

I've traveled to 32 different countries over the years, worked in 16 of them, and been banned from entry in 4. (Can't go back to Greece for 6 more years thanks to a bar fight. Something in Canada that barely ranks a fine, but in Greece carries a 2 year sentence! I took a plea deal. 10 years banned entry to avoid jail)

You sound fun. 

[Crimsondude]

Eh. The rundown on SINless "rights" in Vice is good enough. I have no illusions about trying to reconcile IRL law with Shadowrun, except when IRL law would allow me to really have some fun. Even then, I've leaned heavily on Rule of Cool because it's all in good fun.

My personal rule of thumb is to replace every reference to "person" and "citizen" in the Constitution with "SINner." Those are the rights SINless don't have. For example:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

At least the Fifth still exists, though. The UCAS's 14th Amendment isn't the same as ours, and in fact there is no evidence that the language of the 14th exists anywhere. BTW, that's also how the SINless exist, at least in the UCAS – the lack of Section 1 of the 14th means that people don't automatically become citizens just because they're born within the UCAS.

The last two subsections of 14th, Section 1 limit the states from infringing on individual rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights and the rest of the Constitution. Without that, this doesn't even apply to states – they might provide rights and protections not afforded to SINless federally, since the Constitution is a floor, not a ceiling, and individuals' rights under state laws tend to be even more broad – but that also means that there's nothing stopping states from really messing with the SINless. Depending on who the target is this can and does make life anywhere from uncomfortable to moot because, well, Due Process is the legal floor that keeps the government from just killing you and taking your stuff.

Just for reference, NAGNA estimated a SINless population of 3-4 million in the UCAS. Those estimates have been assumed to increase over the years to emphasize the dystopian nature of Shadowrun, since 3-4 million of ~190MM isn't that bleak. Sure, it's larger than the modern Indian population, but that's an ignorable demographic to most Americans (especially the ones who don't realize there are any Indians left in the U.S.), but 5-10% of the population becomes unavoidable.

[Reaver]

According the UN. and it's declaration of Right of Foreign nationals in an other country you are entitled to:

1. Aliens shall enjoy, in accordance with domestic law and subject to the relevant international obligation of the State in which they are present, in particular the following rights:

(a) The right to life and security of person; no alien shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest or detention; no alien shall be deprived of his or her liberty except on such grounds and in accordance with such procedures as are established by law;

(b) The right to protection against arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy, family, home or correspondence;

(c) The right to be equal before the courts, tribunals and all other organs and authorities administering justice and, when necessary, to free assistance of an interpreter in criminal proceedings and , when prescribed by law, other proceedings;

(d) The right to choose a spouse, to marry, to found a family;

(e) The right to freedom of thought, opinion, conscience and religion; the right to manifest their religion or beliefs, subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others;

(f) The right to retain their own language, culture and tradition;

(g) The right to transfer abroad earnings, savings or other personal monetary assets, subject to domestic currency regulations.


And that's about it. Of course, only UN member countries are bound to follow these statues. But some still don't.

Nothing there about employment, voting, private ownership, health care, and many other things we take for granted.

of Course this is made more complex in SR and the SIN system... cause if you don't have a SIN, it's hard to prove you are even alive... ESPECIALLY when there are people looking for organs, lab rats, dinner, and target practice... ("Did I really kill someone? Prove it. Where were they born? to Whom? What Hospital? Who knows them?")

Nowadays, you can get away with not answering simple question like your name, DOB and such (they charge you for it..) But it makes the authorites go to extreme lengths to find out about, often turning to the public for help.... In SR, they turn to your SIN and the GSR with a  DNA sample..... But.. you... don't .. have.. a .... SIN..... And since every citizen born to a country is supposed to be in the GSR.... that can mean only one thing.. you're not real! 
@Eirahaexa

Actually I am giant asshole. (At least I can admit it!) and have gotten myself into more trouble then I would of if I learned to keep my dumb ass mouth shut and minded my own business. But I can't.... and shit happens.

[Crimsondude]

According the UN. and it's declaration of Right of Foreign nationals in an other country you are entitled to:

... nothing in Shadowrun, unless the reformed UN pushed through another declaration and its signatory countries actually made it law. There is no evidence of this.

[Reaver]

And this is what VICE has to say on the issue for The UCAS (other countries may be better, or worse)

From VICE, SR 4
In Seattle—as well as the rest of
UCAS—anyone without a SIN is considered a
“probationary citizen.” They are not protected
under the constitution, and so their rights are
severely limited (some might say even non-existent).
The police are not required to allow the
SINless representation by an attorney if they’ve
been accused of a crime, they are not entitled
to a trial by their peers, there are no maximum
sentences for their crimes, and they are not
protected from self-incrimination (including
mind-probes) during questioning. Although
being SINless is not a crime, in and of itself, it
often leads to crimes just in daily life: a SINless
metahuman cannot have licenses (such as a
driver’s license or gun permit) that many take
for granted, and so the simple act of driving a
car becomes a crime. The SINless have no rights
to free speech, carry arms, gather peaceably, or
vote. Some public and government areas require
all people present to broadcast their SIN—simply
entering the Seattle Zoo is therefore a crime for
a SINless person.

Edit: And I just noticed that Crimsondude updated his earlier entry as well..... but missed the part about self-incrimination (the 5th amendment in the US)... The SINless don't have that right either.  ("and they are not
protected from self-incrimination (including mind-probes) during questioning." bit)

[Reaver]

According the UN. and it's declaration of Right of Foreign nationals in an other country you are entitled to:

... nothing in Shadowrun, unless the reformed UN pushed through another declaration and its signatory countries actually made it law. There is no evidence of this.

Very true, that is our real world declaration, signed in 1965.

[aono]

Nothing there about employment, voting, private ownership, health care, and many other things we take for granted.

Wait.
It's the very point I'm saying that "employment, voting, private ownership, health care, and many other things we take for granted" isn't really automated and came with a citizenship. We can take it for granted, good for us, but in Sixth World it's not the case. The very history of NAN really started when USA federal government decided that Natives shouldn't have such rights because USA feds could decide that way. Serves them right if you ask me, but the case stands.
You can have SIN AND be stripped from "employment, voting, private ownership, health care, and many other things we take for granted", because why not?

Also you're misreading "Declaration on the Human Rights of Individuals Who are not Nationals of the Country in which They Live". You cited Article 5, but EXACT RIGHTS you say aliens haven't are cited in Article 8.
"1 . Aliens lawfully residing in the territory of a State shall also enjoy, in accordance with the national laws, the following rights, subject to their obligations under article 4:
(a) The right to safe and healthy working conditions, to fair wages and equal remuneration for work of equal value without distinction of any kind, in particular, women being guaranteed conditions of work not inferior to those enjoyed by men, with equal pay for equal work;
(b) The right to join trade unions and other organizations or associations of their choice and to participate in their activities. No restrictions may be placed on the exercise of this right other than those prescribed by law and which are necessary, in a democratic society, in the interests of national security or public order or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others;
(c) The right to health protection, medical care, social security, social services, education, rest and leisure, provided that they fulfil the requirements under the relevant regulations for participation and that undue strain is not placed on the resources of the State."

Just in case, I want to remind where I'm stand.
I wanted to say that position "state isn't give SINs, because if you get a SIN, you automatically have a lot of civil rights, such as welfare, and it's very costly", is objected by simple understanding that HAVING SIN (or citizenship) in general don't give you finnish level of welfare for granted. If laws don't give you good welfare, you don't get it. And nothing can really made non-accountable government to grant such rights.
I'm not trying to say that SINless have a lot of rights. I'm trying to say SINless aren't subjects of laws, it's quite opposite position. It means, for example, they are not subjects to taxation or mobilization. They aren't obliged, theoretically, to follow ANY law at all. But police officer isn't obliged, theoretically, to follow proper procedure with them, so welcome to the universe of police arbitrariness.

[Reaver]

Nothing there about employment, voting, private ownership, health care, and many other things we take for granted.

Wait.
It's the very point I'm saying that "employment, voting, private ownership, health care, and many other things we take for granted" isn't really automated and came with a citizenship. We can take it for granted, good for us, but in Sixth World it's not the case. The very history of NAN really started when USA federal government decided that Natives shouldn't have such rights because USA feds could decide that way. Serves them right if you ask me, but the case stands.
You can have SIN AND be stripped from "employment, voting, private ownership, health care, and many other things we take for granted", because why not?

Also you're misreading "Declaration on the Human Rights of Individuals Who are not Nationals of the Country in which They Live". You cited Article 5, but EXACT RIGHTS you say aliens haven't are cited in Article 8.
"1 . Aliens lawfully residing in the territory of a State shall also enjoy, in accordance with the national laws, the following rights, subject to their obligations under article 4:
(a) The right to safe and healthy working conditions, to fair wages and equal remuneration for work of equal value without distinction of any kind, in particular, women being guaranteed conditions of work not inferior to those enjoyed by men, with equal pay for equal work;
(b) The right to join trade unions and other organizations or associations of their choice and to participate in their activities. No restrictions may be placed on the exercise of this right other than those prescribed by law and which are necessary, in a democratic society, in the interests of national security or public order or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others;
(c) The right to health protection, medical care, social security, social services, education, rest and leisure, provided that they fulfil the requirements under the relevant regulations for participation and that undue strain is not placed on the resources of the State."

ACK! Missed that!  (and thank you for pointing it out... still had the page open on my phone so it was an easy lookup, I guess the page hadn't fully loaded when I was copying from it, because that wasn't there when I was looking earlier, but it IS now!).

and shows I was talking out of my ass a bit.  (See? I can admit it, when shown )

[Crimsondude]

I guess I should add that I'm all for there not being any Due Process rights for SINless either, but that's not explicitly the case. Given the material on Criminal SINs and criminal procedure going back to Lone Star, however, I have to begrudgingly acknowledge that Due Process is granted to the SINless to protect their life and liberty.

At the same time, though, I refuse to believe that it extends to their property or property interests. It doesn't exist for immigrants who've been detained or under civil forfeiture (I'm not specifically sure if the former falls under the latter or under the federal government's immigration powers).

ANYWAY, if those two are about it, then yeah, being SINless sucks. And the UCAS is probably one of the better countries to be SINless in.

[RowanTheFox]

@Eirahaexa

Actually I am giant asshole. (At least I can admit it!) and have gotten myself into more trouble then I would of if I learned to keep my dumb ass mouth shut and minded my own business. But I can't.... and shit happens.

Oh honey, you should see the miscreants I run with. We are all assholes. We have to be.

I was homeless on and off as a kid in the buckle of the bible belt (same city the Westboro Baptist Church calls home, actually.), and I had to do some morally ambiguous things to survive. Managed to avoid drugs or getting forced into prostitution, but I've still seen some shit that would make even the most gutsy shadowrunner flinch.

No ID, no money, no help, nada. I was about as close to SINless as you can get in the good ol' US of A. I still drink a little too much than I probably should, but I've managed to avoid any legal trouble. Still sleep with a knife under my pillow too.

[Crimsondude]

A lot of people also lost their SINs in the big Matrix crashes.

Rumors and conspiracy-mongering. The Global SIN Registry was never compromised. Everything is fine. Move along, citizen.