[Reaver]

civil forfeiture (I'm not specifically sure if the former falls under the latter or under the federal government's immigration powers).

not sure about the states, or SR, but in Canada, both the Federal and Provincial governments have civil forfeiture policies... and both have been known to go after the same items.

Which is basically everything you have if you commit a crime!

Thankfully, the Civil Rights League of Canada has been stepping up to the plate, and defending some people that the CF offices have gone after. Especially those caught in catch 22s situations. (and trust me, there are A LOT of them! Greedy, money grubbing fuckhead asshole politicians.... I got a barbwire wrapped crowbar for their asses... to be inserted SIDEWAYS!)

Basically, get charged (NOT CONVICTED!) of an indictable offense, and they come after your house(s), your car(s), your pension, your bank account(s).... everything worth a nickel they want, and want it NOW.... often times the notice from the CF office arrives before your court date.. and if you are found innocent? Good for you! now fight the CF office to NOT take your shot anyways!

(want to boil your blood, just google Canada, Civil Forfeiture)

[Crimsondude]

There are tons of cases where the cops have just taken cash from people they pulled over and that money disappeared into a black hole.

Let's just say that it works the same way or may even be worse here barring a few states that have recently limited the use of civil forfeiture by state and local law enforcement.

[Reaver]

The biggest case of outrage (and civil suit won against the CF office) up here involved a Land lord and a tenant.

The tenant was selling drugs out of a house and got arrested. The CF office laid a claim on the house, taking from the owner stating that since the house had been used by the tenant and the Landlord didn't evict him in 30 days, the landlord was responsible.
HOWEVER, the Tenancy Act of Canada states that a Landlord can NOT evict someone from their rented property even if they commit an indictable offense without 90 days notice filed with both the Tenancy Office and the Tenant. To evict with out said notice is an indictable offense.....

Catch 22.... He doesn't evict the tenant right away, he loses his house, he DOES evict he is charged with an indictable offense and loses his house.

After 5 years in court at the cost of almost $300,000 in legal fees (the house was LONG ago taken by the feds), a Supreme Court judge ruled that the Crown had acted in bad faith and awarded the landlords the purchase price of the house (current year), restitution of legal fees, and $ 2 million in damages. It's currently under appeal by the Crown, *which could mean another 3 years before the appeal court even looks at it. (Thankfully the appeals court of the Supreme Court of Canada doesn't have to spend long on it if they choose not to... a Simple YES/NO with no reasons given is the way the Appeals court works. Either yes you get an appeal and a new trial, or No, the verdict stands.

My lawyer says the appeals court most likely will reject the appeal as there is no legal basis for it. And the only reason I have paid such close interest in this case is the fact that I have a half dozen rental homes across Canada, and could very easily find myself in this exact situation.

[Senko]

What about Mehran Karimi Nasseri? I apologize for the quote being from wikipedia  but I don't have the time to find a more reputeable site as I'm heading to bed . . .

Nasseri claims he was expelled from Iran in 1977 for protests against the Shah and after a long battle, involving applications in several countries, was awarded refugee status by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in Belgium. This allegedly permitted residence in many other European countries. However, this claim has been disputed.[3]

Having claimed to have one British parent, although he has produced no evidence to support this, he decided to settle in the UK in 1986, but en route there in 1988, his papers were lost when his briefcase was stolen.[4] Despite this setback, he boarded the plane for London but was promptly returned to France when he failed to present a passport to British immigration officials. He was initially arrested by the French, but then released as his entry to the airport was legal and he had no country of origin to be returned to; thus began his residency at Terminal 1.

His case was later taken on by French human rights lawyer Christian Bourget. In 1992, a French court ruled that, having entered the country legally, he could not be expelled from the airport, but it could not grant him permission to enter France.

Attempts were then made to have new documents issued from Belgium, but the authorities there would only do so if Nasseri presented himself in person. However, under Belgian law a refugee who voluntarily leaves a country that has accepted him cannot return. In 1995, the Belgian authorities granted permission for him to return, but only if he agreed to live there under supervision of a social worker. Nasseri refused this on the grounds of wanting to enter the UK as originally intended.[4]

Nasseri's stay at the airport ended in July 2006 when he was hospitalized and his sitting place dismantled. Towards the end of January 2007, he left the hospital and was looked after by the airport's branch of the French Red Cross; he was lodged for a few weeks in a hotel close to the airport. On March 6, 2007, he transferred to an Emmaus charity reception-centre in Paris's 20th arrondissement. Since 2008 he has continued to live in a Paris shelter.[4]

During his 17-year-long stay at Terminal 1 in the Charles de Gaulle Airport, Nasseri had his luggage at his side and spent his time reading, writing in his diary, or studying economics.[5] He received food and newspapers from employees of the airport.

Real life case no idea if he was telling the truth about his papers being stolen but the guy spent 17 years living in an airport because he "didn't exist" as far as the legal system was concerned.

As for the SINless being low numbers mentioned earlier that would actually lend a certain degree of realism as far as I see it to the whole distopian angle. A massive SINless population can't really be ignored but one that small I can see the people possessing SIN's not really being concerned "Its not a big problem, I rarely see a homeless person and I commute outside the arcology."

Finally and yes I am jumping all over, in Australia today there are young people who don't want to work because welfare takes care of their "needs". They would rather not get a job and income because they don't want anything more than to drive their car on dirt trails and hang out at Macca's. Now SINless don't get welfare but a small "tribe" who hunt and sing songs around the garbage can fire could evolve. Not just a group of homeless people in the same area but a tribe friends, family, sticking together working together to survive the matrxi crash, wars, weird and frightening events that acompanied awakening. That is . . .

Generation 1: Lose everything and huddle together to survive as the entire country implodes (great ghost dance).
Generation 2: Grew up amidst the "ruin" of America.
Generation 3: Never knew anything different and don't want a SIN because why do they need it? To vote? They don't care. To work? Hunting rats in the barrens doesn't need a SIN. To own property? Those SINners don't look happy at all.

First generation lost it and didn't think it ever came back, second generation grew up with only vague childhood memories of citizenship, third generation don't want to leave their homes and lives.

[Reaver]

Didn't they make a movie staring Tom Hanks based off of that???

[Crimsondude]

Generation 1: Lose everything and huddle together to survive as the entire country implodes (great ghost dance).
Generation 2: Grew up amidst the "ruin" of America.
Generation 3: Never knew anything different and don't want a SIN because why do they need it? To vote? They don't care. To work? Hunting rats in the barrens doesn't need a SIN. To own property? Those SINners don't look happy at all.

In the UCAS, this describes the Compensation Army. They have their own barrens within the Anacostia Barrens in DeeCee called Compville. It's described in Conspiracy Theories as "a breeding ground for anti-government activists, neo-Anarchists, and armed militiamen."

Well, I should add that this also describes the Ork Underground perfectly and matches the description of Kham's home life in Never Trust An Elf. At least pre-Proposition 23.

Didn't they make a movie staring Tom Hanks based off of that???

Yes, complete with a needless and contrived love story.

[dposluns]

Thanks for filling me in on some of the lore, you guys.

I think maybe what I still struggle with is that while the condition of growing up SINless sounds absolutely miserable on paper, it is kind of a privilege in this game. You don't pay taxes, you don't have any negative associations and (by default anyway) aren't on the books anywhere. Sure you may have to shill out for a fake SIN to get by but that's easy enough. And the system may not be on your side but you operate outside the system anyway. It just seems like a pretty fortunate place to be beginning by default, that the majority of the population wouldn't necessarily have as an option.

[Reaver]

Well, Runners are a little bit above the rest of the SINless, usually by sheer force of will to learn to do things others can not.

And there are people like that everywhere, just look around your home city and listen to the stories of some "old timers"

There are lots of people who were born with literally nothing, and through determination, hard work and force of Will became successful in their lives and changed their situations.


SR is not really any different in that regard. Sure the way they lift themselves up is different, and they face a different struggles, but it's the force of character they have that is the same.

[Sengir]

I guess I should add that I'm all for there not being any Due Process rights for SINless either, but that's not explicitly the case. Given the material on Criminal SINs and criminal procedure going back to Lone Star, however, I have to begrudgingly acknowledge that Due Process is granted to the SINless to protect their life and liberty.

Technically, most countries in SR still subscribe to the notion of human rights, which grant rights such as protection from arbitrary detention to every human regardless of citizenship -- but just as those rights are happily ignored IRL, merely having statements to that effect on the books does not mean much in SR...

[Mirikon]

Thanks for filling me in on some of the lore, you guys.

I think maybe what I still struggle with is that while the condition of growing up SINless sounds absolutely miserable on paper, it is kind of a privilege in this game. You don't pay taxes, you don't have any negative associations and (by default anyway) aren't on the books anywhere. Sure you may have to shill out for a fake SIN to get by but that's easy enough. And the system may not be on your side but you operate outside the system anyway. It just seems like a pretty fortunate place to be beginning by default, that the majority of the population wouldn't necessarily have as an option.

The disconnect is that you're thinking about things from a runner's POV. But there's a reason why any runner who has the cred gets themselves as good a fake SIN as they can. Without a SIN, doing basic things (like walking in certain neighborhoods) can draw the attention of the cops. Purchasing anything from a licensed dealer is pretty much a no-go, meaning you're looking at black and grey market goods for EVERYTHING, unless you can find it at the local Stuffer Shack, or can find a way to trade for it. Having any Restricted weapon without a SIN is a fast-track to getting your very own shiny Criminal SIN if you get caught. You can't live in areas nicer than the Barrens without a SIN.

That doesn't mean it is all bad, but you're definitely at a disadvantage for your day-to-day living that someone with a SIN just doesn't have. How much will this affect you in game? Depends on how your GM runs things.

[dposluns]

Thanks for filling me in on some of the lore, you guys.

I think maybe what I still struggle with is that while the condition of growing up SINless sounds absolutely miserable on paper, it is kind of a privilege in this game. You don't pay taxes, you don't have any negative associations and (by default anyway) aren't on the books anywhere. Sure you may have to shill out for a fake SIN to get by but that's easy enough. And the system may not be on your side but you operate outside the system anyway. It just seems like a pretty fortunate place to be beginning by default, that the majority of the population wouldn't necessarily have as an option.

The disconnect is that you're thinking about things from a runner's POV. But there's a reason why any runner who has the cred gets themselves as good a fake SIN as they can. Without a SIN, doing basic things (like walking in certain neighborhoods) can draw the attention of the cops. Purchasing anything from a licensed dealer is pretty much a no-go, meaning you're looking at black and grey market goods for EVERYTHING, unless you can find it at the local Stuffer Shack, or can find a way to trade for it. Having any Restricted weapon without a SIN is a fast-track to getting your very own shiny Criminal SIN if you get caught. You can't live in areas nicer than the Barrens without a SIN.

That doesn't mean it is all bad, but you're definitely at a disadvantage for your day-to-day living that someone with a SIN just doesn't have. How much will this affect you in game? Depends on how your GM runs things.

Except that you can exit chargen with a Rating 4 Fake SIN for just 10,000 nuyen, which pretty much washes away the issue of not having a SIN for most things. Or get a cheapo one until you need to actually go in the front door of somewhere more secure than a grocery store. In terms of game mechanics it's a pretty advantageous place to be, compared to those poor suckers who pay taxes and are in the system.

[Longshot23]

I think I remember a couple of references to SIN amnesties. Have there actually been any?

[Reaver]

Yes there have. The DiMR has been known to give out a limited number of SINs, I believe on the anniversary of the Big D death. I just can't remember if it was 5k or 10k....

And also keep in mind that's not limited to a single city but across the country (World??)

And what happens to those people is up for debate. (There is shadow talk that those who get a SIN from the DiMR have been disappearing...)

[Longshot23]

Wasn't it the 'token' recipients who were disappearing?

[Reaver]

TBH, I can't remember the details. The shadowtalk around the entry mentioned that a large number of DiMR citizens that got SINs from their amnisty give out ended going missing within 3 years....

Now there could be a logical reason for this (they were SINless for a long time and even a SIN doesn't mean you can find steady employment especially when you have no recgognized education.....

But the posts also hinted that something was going on.... maybe they were jump technomancers... or latent Drakes.... or maybe just test subjects....

Its left open for the GM to use (as are many of the shadowtalk rumors)