[Kerebrus]

so, this is what happens when I help one of my players (new to the game) make a hand to hand assassin.

Human Adept - 5 Magic, 4 STR, 5 AGIL
Unarmed Combat 6, Specialized Muay Thai (10 BP, +2DV)
Adept Powers, Deadly Hands, Critical Strike 5, Improved Unarmed +3, Increased Reflexes 1

so he melee attacks 16 dice, with a base Damage value of 9P
Also works out that he can punch most barrier ratings

just for giggles I might have to put a body-jacked Troll in front of him and see if it can last the combat round, the ork bodyguard last night certainly didn't.

the party also features an Ork pumped on automatics packing a riot shield and a machine pistol - if they keep up the lethality then I am going to have to have them catch some heat.

[Kot]

There's always a way. Just give them what they want (combat) and spice it with special conditions(absolutely no killing, no collateral damage, etc.).

[Dead Monky]

And if you give them a straight up fight with no constraints, make it hard.  Damn hard.  Use smart tactics, well equipped enemies, no quarter attitude.  Make them work for their pay.  And their lives.  Make them learn that no, they are not the baddest motherfuckers around.

What can I say?  I like to hit the combat monsters hard.  The harder they can hit, the harder I'll hit them back.

[Teknodragon]

"Word is, you chums like wetwork..."

Or, conversely, there's always someone with a bigger gun.
Also... waving around a machine pistol while lugging a riot shield ain't subtle.

Speaking from experience a few weeks ago, a rooftop gunman is a real pain, especially if the team doesn't have air support.

Further thoughts: Give the team a job where success requires not killing everyone, or putting holes in walls/doors.

[Dead Monky]

A bunch of gun bunnies on a snatch and grab or courier run = hilarious.

[Kerebrus]

truth

a couple of other observations.

The Stealth Skillgroup is rude.  Not Everyone has Perception.  (mr fisticuffs is also a ninja)

Intimidating those without intimidate is wildly effective.

If you plan on never using full Defense, Dodge is nearly a waste.

Levitate is HUGELY good.
---

Hitting these guys with a smart combat team is going to get the two mages insta-killed.  Both mages are decidely un-subtle in their level of display.  Which means a smart ranged solution is "geek the mages" - although the smarter of the two mages, who conjures up a spirit for Guard and Magical Guard duty on a regular basis might make live longer than the other one.

[Glyph]

16 dice and 9P should make the assassin a heavy hitter, but only a heavy hitter - he is still a long way from best of the best status.  Of course, he won't run into the best out there (unless he has really messed up), but there are other heavy hitters out there, who could give him a run for his money.

What exactly is the problem with their lethality?  The normal course of a shadowrun usually involves some shooting.  Is it that they are killing gratuitously, treating the game like a first-person shooter?  Is it that they are too powerful for you to challenge effectively?  I believe characters should face in-game consequences for poorly thought-out decisions, but you might want to make sure that the problem isn't an out-of-game one, where they don't quite "get" how your game world works.

[Kontact]

A machine pistol and a guy who mega-punches twice a CT?

That's not really high lethality...

Also, a riot shield is not the most effective means of stacking armor, though it might be the most in-your-face obvious to onlookers.

[The_Gun_Nut]

It would provide good cover for the mages behind the guy carrying it, though.

As mentioned earlier, the game is not a FPS, do not forget the consequences of the character's actions.  If a SR team becomes blase about the damage they inflict, numbers always make a difference.  If the team cheeses off the wrong people, then 20 or so goons armed to the teeth applying firepower on their position works wonders for curing the "gunz blazing" attitude.  Take a look at how real-life cops take down a criminal:  they go in with overwhelming advantage.  Cop shows on TV may have the lone wolf types on them, but that's because they have script immunity.

It doesn't sound like your players are out of hand, but keep that in mind for if they do get out of hand.

[Walks Through Walls]

Another way to handle the hand to hand specialist is instead of trying to make the opponent tougher is make him able to keep from being hit while able to take some damage and hit hard back.

A effective way to do this I found is with move-by-wire. True not a beginning character solution, but it sounds like the group is already progressing beyond beginning level foes.

Couple move by wire 2 or 3 with a high dodge and some muscle augmentation especially for an elf. Max out reaction also
Add a good level of unarmed combat with specialization take a force of martial arts that has counterstrike and parry. You full defense parry the opening attack from your hand to hand specialist and are probably around 18 dice if built right. Now if you get more successes then the hand to hand you can then counterattack with a bonus and see how well he takes a punch.

If you want to add lethality to it then give the guy bone lacing.

Or if you want to make it an ego blow also then make it a female character who has a high charisma to boot.

[Glyph]

The martial arts maneuver you're thinking about is riposte, not counterstrike.  Counterstrike is an adept power (and very effective for adepts with a high defensive dice pool).  Of course, an adept is unlikely to have move-by-wire, but combat sense is very good, especially combined with the counterstrike.  Another way to boost a defensive dice pool is to get the two-weapon fighting maneuver (although you would need to make it someone using weapons, since it doesn't work with unarmed).

[Mystic]

What exactly is the problem with their lethality?  The normal course of a shadowrun usually involves some shooting.  Is it that they are killing gratuitously, treating the game like a first-person shooter?  Is it that they are too powerful for you to challenge effectively?  I believe characters should face in-game consequences for poorly thought-out decisions, but you might want to make sure that the problem isn't an out-of-game one, where they don't quite "get" how your game world works.

Pretty much how I GM. In all of my games, and SR in particular, I follow the "every action has a consiquence" rule, and I make sure everyone knows it. Want to go on a killing spree against an Ares execs family? Don't cry if they sick a hit squad on your be-hind. Want to insult the local yak oyuban? Yes, there ARE ninjas. Think beating up the local law is fun? So what if they start pinning every crime they can on you.

On the flip side, save the exec's family and you may get a contact. Show the local "sama" some respect and you may get a favor. Try NOT to kill a cop and they may only take you into custody...with minimal brusing.

 

Like I said in another post, life is not fair and neither am I. Do your homework, act smart, and try to make good choices, and you will benefit. Ignore this advice at your won peril.

Muhahahaha! 

[Kontact]

It would provide good cover for the mages behind the guy carrying it, though.

My general rule for what is or isn't cover boils down to, 'does it try to move out of the way when you shoot at it?'

If A: = Yes, then its not cover.

[Wayfinder]

I'd point out to the adept that killing hands is a power that can be turned off and that he can knock a guy out just as fast as he can kill them.

[Charybdis]

I'd point out to the adept that killing hands is a power that can be turned off and that he can knock a guy out just as fast as he can kill them.

Query: Can you use Killing Hands (with Critical strike benefits) to do high power stun damage under normal circumstances? Or do you have to 'switch off'your whole Killing hands combos to do 'normal' unarmed stun damage? I can't recall any definite ruling in this regard....

Addendum: You could always take the Elemental Strike adept power (Street Magic p.176)
The Electricity variant will always do stun damage, and stacks with Killing hands (and halves enemy armour)
Or, the Blast variant (SM p.164) will always do Physical damage, and will absolutely shatter barriers (or even small vehicles)