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Anyone else find Shadows of Europe really out of place?

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firebug

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« on: <04-09-17/0125:39> »
A friend of mine heard some neat stuff about Paris in Shadowrun, and so we went and found a copy of Shadows of Europe to read.

We were both really caught off-guard at how focused on being not Shadowrun it is.  Like it is just constantly how it's pushed away most of the cyberpunk elements in the setting, like corporate influence, strong distaste for any noticeable cybernetics, etc.  Like, I get that there'd be things like almost no Native American influence, obviously.  But there's a lot of "different for the sake of being different from the rest of Shadowrun" which just seems bizarre.

Anyone else find this all really weird?
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #1 on: <04-09-17/0219:20> »
I'll just say that it was a fan-made project by European Shadowrun players that made it through the pitch and development process to become a real product.

firebug

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« Reply #2 on: <04-09-17/0229:56> »
I'll just say that it was a fan-made project by European Shadowrun players that made it through the pitch and development process to become a real product.

That explains a lot, like the flat-out refusal to follow along with the overall metaplots, it seems.
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lokii

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« Reply #3 on: <04-09-17/0626:02> »
That explains a lot, like the flat-out refusal to follow along with the overall metaplots, it seems.

What do you mean?

Kirito99

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« Reply #4 on: <04-09-17/0721:51> »
SoE was one of the best supplements cause it doesn't have so much america-oriented tropes. I really wish that someday CGL hire frelancers outside of USA cause newest editions has better mechanic, but explore same places, tropes and ideas which is boring for someone who has played few years in "Shadowrun".

Nath

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« Reply #5 on: <04-09-17/1814:25> »
As one of Shadows of Europe authors, I happen to have an opinion of the subject. Note that what follows is not neccessarily the thoughts that were behind SoE - first because a number of other people had their input as well, and also because I also have given this a lot of afterthoughts since. If I was to write the book nowadays and alone, it would certainly be very different.

The first thing is that wordcount was one big constraint. It was a deliberate choice to have each chapter focus on what makes the country deviates from the Shadowrun standard. So you don't get constant reminder that the ten largest megacorporations worldwide have a presence in most countries, that the Matrix is pretty much the same everywhere, that orks and trolls face racism, that magic and cyberware appliances are common enough. That gets mention only when it's not. Ultimately, the book may effectively read like one long collection of signs that all read "This is different here."

The very concept of "Shadows of" sourcebooks requires each country to differ in some way. Which is not that easy. Once you settled that the book is not going to enter into the specifics of parliamentary dynamics, military order of battle or major cities precise street layouts, European countries tend to be strikingly similar. And that's not specific to Europe. Take a look for instance at Athaskan, Aleut, Tsimshian and Algonkin-Manitou to see how they differ. As locations, they're very similar. I don't think SR ever brought anything that would make running a R&D lab in Winnipeg different from running one in Anchorage. Those countries just happen to have different ongoing plots. And there can be a fine line between writing a location with plots and a mere list of generic plot hooks that could take place just anywhere else. A good location should actually allow the GM to take any generic plot hook and make it different by the sole fact it will took place there.

All of that can be problematic in a cyberpunk setting where globalization is a key concept. By itself, the cyberpunk genre is fairly closed. It's about large megalopolis with global corporations, widespread violence and ethnic criminal syndicates. You had Seattle as the enclave sprawl, Denver as the divided sprawl, San Francisco as the occupied sprawl and Manhattan as a the panopticon sprawl. Right. Now those tropes already got used, how ones makes a cyberpunk version of Baltimore, London or Moscow is nowhere near trivial, let alone Memphis, Cardiff or Archangelsk. Among other things, it worth noting that urban violence has a different feel in countries where firearms circulation is much more restricted than in North America.

Shadowrun does add hermetic mages, shamans, and dragons. Hermetism is just as globalized. Shamans and dragons, on the other hand, are defined by coming from another place or another epoch that is not cyberpunk. Shadowrun amerindian shamans - or elven nations, for that matter - come into the setting with a good third of North America that is completely alien to the cyberpunk genre. It's not random chance that earlier Shadowrun sourcebooks covered only a set of UCAS, CAS and Californian cities while the Native American Nations and Tir Tairngire were covered as countries. It's really difficult to give the cyberpunk treatment to a nation as a whole. In no small part because what makes a nation is the local culture and the local government, two things the cyberpunk seeks to erase.

Still, there's some room to work with. National corporations based on existing ones, local crime syndicates, and dragons, critters and magical traditions based on local lores. But introducing new corporations, new dragons and new magic for each and every country was frowned upon.

Regarding France specifically, it was felt that being against whatever come from North America (corporate extraterritoriality) or Great Britain (cyberware) should be a central element of French identity. The celtic angle was already taken by both United Kingdom and Tir na nOg, the various connection to Africa were also significant element in Portugal and Spain, the Mediterranean crime scene was (obviously) primarily Italian... As a side note, French restrictions on megacorporations were supposed to be mostly administrative hassle that comes nowhere near CAS' ERLA investigations or Pueblo or Tir Tairngire sanctions and outright ban against some megacorporations.

That explains a lot, like the flat-out refusal to follow along with the overall metaplots, it seems.
I wouldn't call that a refusal, because that would assume there were any overall metaplots to start with. Shadows of Europe was designed between 2001 and 2003. The "overall plot" at that point, was Year of the Comet and FASA shutting down. YotC was about events in Denver, Japan, California, Yucatan, Philippines... The only thing that could possibly connect to Europe were SURGE and shedim because they were occuring worldwide. Yes, SoE did not follow up on those, but neither did Shadows of North America or Shadows of Asia (in no small part because SURGE was considered a minor event, and because playing shedim straight would completely disrupt the setting). By the time Threats 2 was released and (re)introduced new plots, SoE was well on its way (causing some late rewriting regarding templars for instance).

firebug

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« Reply #6 on: <04-09-17/1846:32> »
That clears up a lot for me, thank you.  It's entirely likely my friend was unfairly paraphrasing some parts of it, but it really did catch me off-guard that France was written to be as far from cyberpunk as possible, which just struck me as a really confusing choice.
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Rosa

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« Reply #7 on: <04-09-17/1853:06> »
As a player whose game is set in Europe, the SOE supplement has been invaluable to us. Not that I'm crazy about every country's description, but it's way easier to modify something described than to have nothing at all to go on.

I have especially enjoyed the sections about European magic and Corps, and have enjoyed the same in SOA as well, another supplement that I have used extensively as GM.

I'm glad these supplements were made and no one says that you have to use everything in them, but the alternative would have been utterly boring.

Now we just need updated versions of SOE, SOA, SONA, SOLA and a Shadows of Africa...... ;D

PMárk

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« Reply #8 on: <04-09-17/2025:20> »
SoE was one of the best supplements cause it doesn't have so much america-oriented tropes. I really wish that someday CGL hire frelancers outside of USA cause newest editions has better mechanic, but explore same places, tropes and ideas which is boring for someone who has played few years in "Shadowrun".

Amen. as a Hungarian, I quite enjoyed reading it a several months ago, the factions, the politics, the plot hooks, the very European problems. I'm glad it did its slightly different thing rather than being totally 'mericanized standard SR.
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firebug

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« Reply #9 on: <04-09-17/2110:10> »
Is sticking to the big parts of the cyberpunk genre really "Americanizing" the game?  That seems needlessly nationalistic...

I was partly surprised by the fact that in say, Shadowrun: Hong Kong or Shadowrun: Dragonfall, they don't feel the need to push away cyberpunk elements to make it different.  Dragonfall's anarchist Berlin is really cool, and definitely different from the default setting of Seattle, while still being very cyberpunk.  SR:HK combines the cyberpunk dystopia with Chinese mythology so goddamn well it's awesome.
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #10 on: <04-09-17/2123:56> »
Dragonfall's anarchist Berlin is really cool
We'll always have Dragonfall.

Tecumseh

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« Reply #11 on: <04-09-17/2350:22> »
@Nath As someone who not only thinks about the setting but also what it takes to write/create the setting, I appreciate your behind-the-scenes perspective and your reflections on the creation of a sourcebook.

Marzhin

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« Reply #12 on: <04-10-17/0523:08> »
Regarding France specifically, it was felt that being against whatever come from North America (corporate extraterritoriality) or Great Britain (cyberware) should be a central element of French identity. The celtic angle was already taken by both United Kingdom and Tir na nOg, the various connection to Africa were also significant element in Portugal and Spain, the Mediterranean crime scene was (obviously) primarily Italian... As a side note, French restrictions on megacorporations were supposed to be mostly administrative hassle that comes nowhere near CAS' ERLA investigations or Pueblo or Tir Tairngire sanctions and outright ban against some megacorporations.

The authors also had the extra challenge of offering a vision of France that would remain kinda compatible with the atrocious, uncanonical France sourcebook published by Descartes years before, but at the same time being truer to Shadowrun that this book was. Stuff like the mist covering Britanny for instance are based on ideas from the France book, but done better. As bad as France was, many French players had used for their games, due to the lack of alternative, canonical info, so the authors of SoE had to salvage at least some parts of it whenever possible.

Black Book Editions also added some extra content tothe French versions of the SR4 books that developed France in Shadowrun further: Runner Havens has a chapter about Marseille, plagued by organized crime and the Lofwyr-Spinrad conflict. Corporate Enclaves has Lille, which has been bought off by the megacorps and turned into their own country within France. And Feral Cities has Clermont-Ferrand, ravaged by volcanic eruptions both in the real world and the astral. There's also the SOX book, co-developed by German and French authors, which offers a pretty cool campaign dealing with some dark secrets of French politics (IIRC the German version of the book has another, German-centric campaign).
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lokii

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« Reply #13 on: <04-10-17/1435:22> »
Amen. as a Hungarian, I quite enjoyed reading it a several months ago, the factions, the politics, the plot hooks, the very European problems. I'm glad it did its slightly different thing rather than being totally 'mericanized standard SR.

Did you ever have a look at the Hungarian sourcebook? Shadowhelix: ÁrnyékMagyarország

Is sticking to the big parts of the cyberpunk genre really "Americanizing" the game?  That seems needlessly nationalistic...

You didn't know American culture has a bad reputation in Europe? :D

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #14 on: <04-10-17/1545:07> »
Is sticking to the big parts of the cyberpunk genre really "Americanizing" the game?  That seems needlessly nationalistic...

You didn't know American culture has a bad reputation in Europe? :D
Oh, it's not just Europe. Believe me, it isn't. The entirety of the Anglosphere that isn't America (that is to say Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the UK) has cultural protectionism laws related to broadcasting, as does Mexico. Guess whose foreign media they're all trying to keep off their airwaves?
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