[ShadowcatX]

Name:    Nemesis   
Metatype: Elf

Body 5
Agility 7 (10)
Reaction 5 (
Strength 3
Charisma 3
Intuition 4*
Logic 3
Willpower 5

Edge 1
Magic 6

Initiative 12+4d6

* Intuition is listed at 4, but will be augmented by increase intuition by up to +4, sustained by health foci. All stats reflect base intuition.

Physical Limit: 7   Mental Limit: 5      Social Limit: 6   Astral Limit: 6
   
Automatics 1
Con   1   
Ettiquette 1
Exotic Melee Weapon (Monofilament Whip)    6
Perception 6
Sneaking 1
Spellcasting 6
Summoning 6

Quality      
Agile Defender      RG 127
Day Job (20 hrs): Security Mage (Ares)      RF 154
In Debt XV      RF 156
Low-Light Vision      SR5 66
Mystic Adept      SR5 69
Prototype Transhuman      CF 54
Wanted: Evo      RF 159

Power   Rating   Points (Total)    
Improved Ability (skill) (Exotic Melee Weapon (Monofilament Whip))   3   0.5 (1.5)    SR5 309
Improved Reflexes 3      3.5 (3.5)    SR5 310

Implant   Essence   Grade   (Prototype Transhuman)
Muscle Toner 3   0.75   Used   SR5 459
Platelet Factories   0.25   Used   SR5 459

Weapon   Pool   Accuracy   Damage   AP   Reach      
Monofilament Whip   20   8   12P   -8   2      SR5 423
Personalized Grip
Unarmed Attack   9   7   3S   -   0      SR5 132

Name   Rtg   Qty   
Sustaining Focus, Health (Bonded Foci)   4   1   SR5 320
   
Name   Rtg   Qty   
Weapon Focus (Bonded Foci) (Monofilament Whip)   1   1   SR5 320

Chaos Magic Materialization   WIL + INT (9)   

Combat Spells
Clout (limited)

Detection Spells
Mind Probe
Clairvoyance

Health Spells
Heal
Increase [Attribute] (Int)

Illusion Spells
Improved Invisibility   
Trid Phantasm   

Manipulation Spells
Influence   
Levitate
Physical Barrier   

Magic: A, Attributes: A, Metatype: D, Resources: D, Skills: E

I know I probably went overboard on her initiative, 16 + 4d6 (assuming +4 intuition) is right at 30, meaning an above average roll grants 4 passes, and a normal one to below average grants 3.

I know gear is also lacking, she has 7k nuyen left and will be picking up a 6k essentials PACK, but I don't know how to put that in chummer. She'll have some serious work to do to pay off her debts while upgrading her equipment, but c'est la vie. Day Job is just a place holder until I decide on a better negative trait for her (though it would help alleviate some of the stress caused by in debt)...

[SmilinIrish]

While I agree that it isn't explicitly forbidden, I think that used bio breaks the spirit of the quality.  You are genetically engineered, don't think used should apply. 

In Debt 15 huh?  wow.  So you start owing $112,500, and the minimum payment is 11,250 a month.  And to stop owing that every month you have to buy off the quality for 30 karma (or I guess swap it out).  That's pretty steep. 

I see you like Chaos as I do, and a lot of the same spells.  Clout is my go to.  With boosted drain and a fetish you can reliably cast it at F9 without taking drain, for 9S + net hits.  What's your thoughts on Mana Window over Clairvoyance.  See through Astral Barriers.

26 dice to dodge while full defense.  Nice.  grab Jack of all Trades early and splash all your Agility skills.

Personally, I'd drop a level of reflexes and pick up Astral Perception.  You're a blind mage.  But I get into the magic side of it more for my mage characters. 

[ShadowcatX]

I think used bioware with transhuman is cyberpunk through and through.

"I'm sorry sir, implanting the bioware into the fetus didn't work out, the result is suboptimal."
"Terminate, pull the bioware, try again on the next one."
"There's always a next one."

I really like Sioux more, but I was envisioning this character as Russian, with the Wanted: Evo and In Debt being to Vory (they smuggled her out of Russia).

And yeah, In Debt 15 is rough, but money isn't as important to mages either, post creation. Also, this character is pretty demanding on resources and there's just no good way to make it without extra money.

[Marcus]

There's no shortage of issues with this build. It looks legal by the most strict definition. Debt XV is always a red flag (Doing every run down 3 unhealable boxes of physical is just bad for everyone), Used Bioware on Prototype trasnhuman, weapon focus (Mono-whip), while all these things are strictly speaking legal. Together they makes this character a pretty gross in violation of RAI.  I wouldn't accept it at any table i was running.
Changing some stuff up would let you get into the same range of effectiveness without jumping up and down on spirit the game so hard.
Drop trans-human and debt, swap out Mono-whip for a sword, pick up mentor spirit stag, etc etc. 

[ShadowcatX]

There's no shortage of issues with this build. It looks legal by the most strict definition. Debt XV is always a red flag (Doing every run down 3 unhealable boxes of physical is just bad for everyone), Used Bioware on Prototype trasnhuman, weapon focus (Mono-whip), while all these things are strictly speaking legal. Together they makes this character a pretty gross in violation of RAI.  I wouldn't accept it at any table i was running.
Changing some stuff up would let you get into the same range of effectiveness without jumping up and down on spirit the game so hard.
Drop trans-human and debt, swap out Mono-whip for a sword, pick up mentor spirit stag, etc etc.

In other words radically change a character so you like the feel of it more? And "same range of effectiveness" my ass, a sword with 3 strength vs a monowhip? 

And how am I jumping up and down on "the spirit of the game" pray tell? Mono-whip weapon focus? In the game, as canon, for almost 30 years now. Transhuman with used bioware? See my previous post. Debt XV? Do you think that is in the books for PCs not to use it?

[UnLimiTeD]

Prototype is probably not implanting ware into unborn children, it's basically genetic engineering, so it's never gonna be "used". (reason people think it's weird that geneware can't apply)
I see no problem with it, though, because it might just mean they used sloppy techniques and got less in than they technically could have. You get what you pay for; pay less, get less.
The mono whip focus is fishy because the monowhip would resist the artificer with like 20 dice and might very well kill him/her in the process. This is actually doable by a good Artificer with Radical reagents, nowadays, and I've got a half-built concept with that ; I did pay an extra 7.5k for reagents I (by RAW) didn't need to, as I felt seriously bad about being so cheesy.
For a MyAd it's not quite as cheesy as for a full mage, however.
That doesn't change the fact the character is cheesy, but SRs character generation necessitates that. Not doing it just makes you suffer compared to someone who min/maxes and then pays off all their little weaknesses within 50 karma.

[Marcus]

In other words radically change a character so you like the feel of it more? And "same range of effectiveness" my ass, a sword with 3 strength vs a monowhip? 

And how am I jumping up and down on "the spirit of the game" pray tell? Mono-whip weapon focus? In the game, as canon, for almost 30 years now. Transhuman with used bioware? See my previous post. Debt XV? Do you think that is in the books for PCs not to use it?

So you think you can install adult sized bio-ware in a fetus, and that makes sense to you? I've read the advantage and I disagree. You may find a GM who may conclude differently and more power to them. 

There are many many disadds and adds, powers, vehicals and weapons in the books that should never see the light of day on a PC sheet. Just b/c it exists doesn't mean its a good idea to use it. If you want your character to run every game 1/4 of the way to dead, that's your choice, it's just not a helpful choice to your team.

Do you know how hard it is to make a mono-whip focus? What happens when you take a mono-whip focus astral? Does it still count as wirelessly active? There are a lots of problems with it. Further I for one have still never seen the supposed example of this being canon, though it has been brought up before, do you happen to know what that source is? I am very interested in tracking it down.

We all have our own tolerances for cheesy and I'm fine with pushing the limit, but this one doesn't hold water for me. Some how this character gets beat up 3 health levels a every couple days. To me that alone would be unacceptable, but that's how it is.

And yes you can play around with this and make it effective, will it carry the same punch right out of the gate? No. But 12P with -8 AP and 20ish dice behind is going to be vast over kill in any game I've ever played at.
 

[ShadowcatX]

So you think you can install adult sized bio-ware in a fetus, and that makes sense to you? I've read the advantage and I disagree. You may find a GM who may conclude differently and more power to them. 

Who said anything about adult sized? That's idiotic. How would you even come up with that?

There are many many disadds and adds, powers, vehicals and weapons in the books that should never see the light of day on a PC sheet. Just b/c it exists doesn't mean its a good idea to use it. If you want your character to run every game 1/4 of the way to dead, that's your choice, it's just not a helpful choice to your team.

Um... You realize there is another option to taking damage, right?

Do you know how hard it is to make a mono-whip focus? What happens when you take a mono-whip focus astral? Does it still count as wirelessly active? There are a lots of problems with it. Further I for one have still never seen the supposed example of this being canon, though it has been brought up before, do you happen to know what that source is? I am very interested in tracking it down.

Don't know or care, they exist and there are rules for them. What happens when I go astral and does it work with wireless on the astral? Um... Did you even look at the MYSTIC ADEPT on the character sheet, my going astral isn't a concern since it is impossible.

We all have our own tolerances for cheesy and I'm fine with pushing the limit, but this one doesn't hold water for me. Some how this character gets beat up 3 health levels a every couple days. To me that alone would be unacceptable, but that's how it is.

Didn't realize I was in house rules...

[QuoteAnd yes you can play around with this and make it effective, will it carry the same punch right out of the gate? No. But 12P with -8 AP and 20ish dice behind is going to be vast over kill in any game I've ever played at.
[/quote]

And here, I think, we come to the actual issue. The character is powerful and you don't like that. Got it.

[ShadowcatX]

Prototype is probably not implanting ware into unborn children, it's basically genetic engineering, so it's never gonna be "used". (reason people think it's weird that geneware can't apply)

Bleh, I thought the genetic mention was a result of them changing what it did and not changing the fluff.

[Marcus]

Who said anything about adult sized? That's idiotic. How would you even come up with that?

In general that's what used means. Tenemous doesn't generally get access to genetically modified fetuses, and modern genetic labs would prefer experiments untainted by unknown variables like recycle bioware.

Um... You realize there is another option to taking damage, right?

For this character I don't really think so.

Don't know or care, they exist and there are rules for them. What happens when I go astral and does it work with wireless on the astral? Um... Did you even look at the MYSTIC ADEPT on the character sheet, my going astral isn't a concern since it is impossible.

Well I would say I'm shocked by that answer, but we both know better. Your not caring is exactly why we are having this conversation. I think you're violating the spirit of rules, and I think you're b/c I don't think you really understand the spirit of the rules/game.  Just b/c one cannot project does not mean on cannot go astral. I've been at official SR tables where riggers have gown astral, these things happen. 

Didn't realize I was in house rules...

This section is for character critique, I have made my case and made suggestions. It's up to you to decide what you wanna do with that information.

And here, I think, we come to the actual issue. The character is powerful and you don't like that. Got it.

That's just adorable. I don't like the character for the reasons I have said, if this had been a troll that punched for 18P, it wouldn't have bothered me any. As i said I'm all for pushing the limit just try to do it in way that not flagrantly violating the spirit of the system.

[ShadowcatX]

Who said anything about adult sized? That's idiotic. How would you even come up with that?

In general that's what used means. Tenemous doesn't generally get access to genetically modified fetuses, and modern genetic labs would prefer experiments untainted by unknown variables like recycle bioware.

Yes, and every lab has unlimited resources with which to operate because that is how Shadowrun works.

Um... You realize there is another option to taking damage, right?

For this character I don't really think so.

Why pray tell?

That's just adorable. I don't like the character for the reasons I have said, if this had been a troll that punched for 18P, it wouldn't have bothered me any. As i said I'm all for pushing the limit just try to do it in way that not flagrantly violating the spirit of the system.

Using something that is in the books for players to use is not "violating the spirit of the system". Nor is using something that has been around for multiple editions.

Now the transhuman thing, bleh, I will accept used is somewhat cheesy if it has to be genetically modified rather than implanted. I'm not 100% convinced there but either way. I could drop the used and one level of muscle tone and pick up a narco and push my numbers significantly if I wanted to.

[Marcus]

Yes, and every lab has unlimited resources with which to operate because that is how Shadowrun works.

If you are going to the trouble of building a project intended to last a life time, you don't cut corners.

Why pray tell?

Does it look like a well rounded earner to you? It's got a day job with a AAA mega, that alone would make many suspicious. On top of that it's wanted, and deep into it to some unknown crew of baddies. It's also a vast a bunch of half steps, it can't hold down the party mage slot, it doesn't have counter spell, it's not traditional melee superiority the character can't parry. It looks a little like an assassin, but it doesn't have any serious ranged option. So it reasonable deadly with mono-whip, and might be ok sneaking with invisibility. It can off cast and off summon, which does give it some level of versatility. But if i was building a team i would look for something a little dedicated, and little less liability.

Using something that is in the books for players to use is not "violating the spirit of the system". Nor is using something that has been around for multiple editions.

Now the transhuman thing, bleh, I will accept used is somewhat cheesy if it has to be genetically modified rather than implanted. I'm not 100% convinced there but either way. I could drop the used and one level of muscle tone and pick up a narco and push my numbers significantly if I wanted to.

As i already told you, there are lots of things in the books, doesn't mean you use them. Toxic mentor spirits, Leeeroy Jinkins, starting as a drake, or a windigo all those rules are in the books, all of which can get your character and your team killed or more likely you character killed by your team in very short order.  All of those rules have been around for multiple editions, and all of them would have gotten you killed in each of those editions. You need to understand the context, how does it fit in to the larger setting. Why is this something you don't do?  Look up k10, you could use that and turn anyone into instant bad @ss. But guess what? You don't cause it will kill your character. 

[ShadowcatX]

Yes, and every lab has unlimited resources with which to operate because that is how Shadowrun works.

If you are going to the trouble of building a project intended to last a life time, you don't cut corners.

I agree 100%. You also don't have it guarded by security guards with 6-9 dice, and yet we are. Remember this is everything through the lens of the 80s.

Why pray tell?

Does it look like a well rounded earner to you? It's got a day job with a AAA mega, that alone would make many suspicious. On top of that it's wanted, and deep into it to some unknown crew of baddies. It's also a vast a bunch of half steps, it can't hold down the party mage slot, it doesn't have counter spell, it's not traditional melee superiority the character can't parry. It looks a little like an assassin, but it doesn't have any serious ranged option. So it reasonable deadly with mono-whip, and might be ok sneaking with invisibility. It can off cast and off summon, which does give it some level of versatility. But if i was building a team i would look for something a little dedicated, and little less liability.

Ah, so again because you don't like the build I got it. And if you had read, Dayjob is a placeholder because I didn't know what else to give her.

ETA: I think this is a big portion of the disagreement, you seem to think the character concepts are straight jackets and every runner is required to fit into one of them or never see work. I don't. Full mages account for less than 1% of the population, even with limited magical capability a competent spell caster / summoner will never want for work.

I also think it interesting that you assume Johnsons get to read our character sheets before they decide rather or not to hire someone. Likewise I think it interesting that you think no good shadowrunner is involved with shady people. These are people who commit crimes and are shot at for a living, they aren't meant to be clean, church going, well behaved, 100% functional in society types, in my book at least, but your mileage obviously varies. /edit.

Using something that is in the books for players to use is not "violating the spirit of the system". Nor is using something that has been around for multiple editions.

Now the transhuman thing, bleh, I will accept used is somewhat cheesy if it has to be genetically modified rather than implanted. I'm not 100% convinced there but either way. I could drop the used and one level of muscle tone and pick up a narco and push my numbers significantly if I wanted to.

As i already told you, there are lots of things in the books, doesn't mean you use them. Toxic mentor spirits, Leeeroy Jinkins, starting as a drake, or a windigo all those rules are in the books, all of which can get your character and your team killed or more likely you character killed by your team in very short order.  All of those rules have been around for multiple editions, and all of them would have gotten you killed in each of those editions. You need to understand the context, how does it fit in to the larger setting. Why is this something you don't do?  Look up k10, you could use that and turn anyone into instant bad @ss. But guess what? You don't cause it will kill your character.

Drake's are absolutely meant to be used, toxic mages have always been listed as "not for PC's", of the other 2 characters I have in Chummer 1 is a vampire, so ya, HMHVV is meant to be used as well, and there is at least one novel where one of the runners was a Wendigo, Sam Verner's sister, IIRC.

No clue what Leeroy Jenkins is.

[Marcus]

Drake's are absolutely meant to be used, toxic mages have always been listed as "not for PC's", of the other 2 characters I have in Chummer 1 is a vampire, so ya, HMHVV is meant to be used as well, and there is at least one novel where one of the runners was a Wendigo, Sam Verner's sister, IIRC.

No clue what Leeroy Jenkins is.

LOL That's all totally adorable. You really think Chummer is a good place to determine character legality? I can't even breath it's just too funny. Why don't you go read about Wendigo, in SR, and come back tell me they should be playable. 

[ShadowcatX]

Drake's are absolutely meant to be used, toxic mages have always been listed as "not for PC's", of the other 2 characters I have in Chummer 1 is a vampire, so ya, HMHVV is meant to be used as well, and there is at least one novel where one of the runners was a Wendigo, Sam Verner's sister, IIRC.

No clue what Leeroy Jenkins is.

LOL That's all totally adorable. You really think Chummer is a good place to determine character legality? I can't even breath it's just too funny. Why don't you go read about Wendigo, in SR, and come back tell me they should be playable.

My point wasn't legality, my point was that the rules are totally setup for pcs to be allowed to use. And like I said, there's an example of a Wendigo pc in the novels. If you can't fathom how it would work, well your lack of imagination is not my problem. And drop the condescending attitude or just get out of the thread.