[daidalon]

1st off, totally done with the 3 seperate convos. If you won't condense it down, here, I will.

1st off: move by wire rating 1 is 40K nuyen, which is  14K nuyen more than you can get, in any way shape or form, at E resources. If you dedicate ALL of your allowed starting karma-to-nuyen AND starting nuyen to it... you still can only get it and a whopping rating 3 skilljack (woo... keep reading) at D resources. And that is it, with literally 0 gear, and nothing else to their name (if any GM allows this, they deserve the phonebook as much as any player trying this shit).

At C resources, you can get your move by wire rating 1, and your skilljack rating 6. If you are willing to get restricted gear AND bio compatability, and talk your GM into letting you start with betaware, you can get this down to you ONLY losing 2 points of essence (and thus starting resonance). If you can't... well, sorry, but you just lost 3 resonance as it is over 2 points of essence lost, full stop.

Now, assuming your GM isn't the literal nicest on the planet, lets assume you lost 3 resonance. Well, due to how if you, at any point, hit 0 resonance (even during chargen!) you permanently stop being a technomancer (called out in the TM section explcitly)... you are going to need to either dedicate special attribute points to it OR have priority B+ in resonance. This means that, unless you are playing a metatype E human, you need at least rating C metatype to even attempt this at all. Math majors will probably shoot for metatype D human as it gives you enough points to max res at your whopping 3. The most amazing resonance score ever.

Also, before I get the ienvitable comment... YES a skilljack is required for skillwires. It is called out explicitly, and it is also a gate for it. Without both at the right rating, you get no activesofts (heard this argument far too man times given it is in black on tan...)

Additionally, 20 of your starting karma must be sacrificed to the gods to even get the technoadept quality, so not much karma left there to play with.

Finally, tests when using skillwires are attribute + active soft rating. Which means, without good and varied attributes, your high rating skillwires mean nothing. You can get an amazing 8 dice in your skills, which, since you have no gear, is highly subject to be much smaller for every single test you do. You also get cannot edge any of these tests, and, don't quote me on this as it may be a local table houserule, I don't believe you can benefit from teamwork tests.

But, here is the fun part... even with all of this, you STILL have no skill softs loaded, despite most of your priority ratings having been burnt away. Which takes me to my next point...


Item 2: Skilllsofts are not cheap. An active soft is 5,000 nuyen PER RATING and it is the RATING of the skillsoft, NOT the skillwires, that is added to your attribute for the test. You can have rating 1000 skillwires, but, for a single skill, it STILL won't be any better than a rating 6 skill wire.

And, I don't know what table you are at, but most runs don't include a fraction of the nuyen to do that. You could MAYBE buy 1 rating 6 active soft once every 4-5 runs, if you are lucky and buy nothing else at all/roast your karma to the nuyen gods. During that time, you can also watch as everyone else in your team is gearing up in their own ways.

Item 3: SURE, you can totally mitigate sustaining penalties alittle. It just makes your initial cost cut even deeper, and makes those tiny dicepools you are left even smaller.

item 4: I'm with Finterstag. Never thought on controlrig myself, that I could see edge cases getting broken (though a jammer or that new instant wireless off grenade nips that to hell). Things like groveler, and some of the bulldrek that technoshaman great form sprites can do, are some of things to focus on. The control device thing, if they have a good commlink, I don't see being an issue usually due to how gnarly the penalty is.

Item 5: Your calculations are STILL demanding an almost impossible roll, and your math is also assuming an illegal amount of resonance at chargen barring exceptional attribute (which, with technoadept, is either impossible to get OR is so much karma invested you have clearly gone far too far down this rabbithole).

Item 6: If at all possible, please provide counter points, not insults. Insults and angry outbursts do not make points. They break your own and start flame wars that I, frankly, am not interest in. I'm primarily responding to this as I know you are on the erratta team, and want to make sure you are cognizant of just how crazy far you are stretching for this before making it a boogeyman to jump on.


Edit: Also, I forgot to account for the skilljack essence cost. So, barring restricted gear or other qualities to mitigate the essence impact, you are looking at 4 points of resonance lost due to essence loss. So this all gets EVEN worse for this MBW build's functionality XD

[daidalon]

There are cyberlimbs as well.  Well, I'm assuming you could Overdrive the Enhancements.

Thats actually a good idea. Using that on the enhanced X would give you a boost for that limb at least. Still capped at +4, but I retract my statement of it being useless for cyberlimbs

[Marcus]

Messing around with limbs isn't going to do much for you. Yeah you can boost stuff but odds are you maxed the limit out already, and the rules aren't clear if the boost breaks the restriction on attribute or not. If not boosting them makes the limb useless, as you break the limb cap.

Now the fluff talking about using it on cyber eyes, so clearly they are using to break the perception bonus there, which is perfectly legit and has it's uses. You can be super eye detective.

More interesting options-
A Smartlink like all devices, does actually have basic rating, (it's outlined on a table on 234 core). A Smartlink being "Basic cyberware" is device rating 2. Which makes the math workout nicely with it's +2 bonus. So arguably you can boost it's rating at +1 to attack per level of rating. Installing in hot swappable cyber eyes, and this could simplest solution to the other factors involved.

muscle replacement- this oldie but goodie doesn't carry any of the limb's restrictions language it's rating are predefined and scale cleanly. You overclock them all day.
 
Reaction enhancers the same, clearly not as effective as MBW or WR, but it would stack with stuff.

Dermal plating- i think this is self explanatory.

Skillwires- we have already discussed this

stuff that gets weird

Decks and commlinks- an implanted deck or commlink, should be a valid target for this effect, and they all have device ratings. What happens when you jack a deck's rating, the same but to a lesser degree a commlink? I think it's fire wall + device rating. Which if it is, mean you could jack commlink it's some sort matrix supper fortress.

Radar Sensor- this remember batman cellphone all around knowledge thing? Arguably you can achive something similar
(The radar sensor uses the same Visibility modifiers
as ultrasound but can penetrate a cumulative Structure
Rating equal to its own Rating x 5. Thus, a Rating 2 radar
sensor can penetrate two Rating 5 walls, or a single Rating
10 wall, or three Rating 3 walls, etc. )
Normally caps at 4, but we can fix that now so see though hold buildings no problem.

[kainite311]

I have a troll adept out of chargen that has dodge of 14. It's not hard. Init is 12+4d6 (about 8 less on average then example, so yeah about 1 pass on average more). However, if I read all the examples of Overdrive correctly, it looks like you applied the total net hits to the level bonus (Overdive is half the net hits). Second the reduced Resonance for 3 essence lost makes a max form skill of 11 (skill 6(+2) + Res 3 = 11), on average of 3-4 hits for +2 net to MBW making it level 3 (using the level 1 example). Let's say you use some BS cheese to get Resonance 4 back at chargen (still not sure how, since submersion has already been called out as official in previous post). That's still 12 total dice to roll (same average pretty much, net same result - slight chance of level 4 MBW). Now the bad news. First your in wireless mode, so hack away. Surviving that, when the power ends it takes matrix damage equal to the POWER (unresisted) of the form cast, so you want to try to push for that +4, you need power 7(rounding up), meaning 7 damage and almost bricked in one use. Also there was the 6 fade to deal with (L+1 with -2 for cyberadept). So boosting up caused on average (assuming 8 for dice pool with Res 3 + Will 5), results in about 3-4 stun damage right out of the gate.

All of this assumes some sort of build that is not only legal, but viable in more than just being able to go first and more. If you really want to demonstrate your point, MAKE the build, show the proof, and stop using abstract assumptions that may or may not be valid when looking at the rest of the whole (as opposed to microscoping onto one aspect that ignores the rest of the character possibly being a total gimp in all other areas except this one aspect). There is a lot of sacrifice to get to do that, meaning the rest of the character will be... lacking, if not outright useless. You can be the greatest combat machine the world has ever seen, but you can still starve because you are so socially inept / uncouth / whatever that you can't even function as a person to order a burrito from the stuffer shack.

Barring all that, as GM, it's pretty easy to steamroll that player for abusing the system grossly (which again I think pales in comparisn to what magic users can do long term). So far I am not seeing a huge problem with it, and am willing to let it play out and see how it plays in game before I get to bent out of shape about it. On paper / Play / and realistic viable functioning character are rarely always the same. Yeah, I can can make super mage if I put 1-2 into body and str, but thats not realistic. Get shot? knocked down a lot (even if your armor soaks it), tear gas? Toxin? physically overpowered? Anyways I digressed.

[daidalon]

Messing around with limbs isn't going to do much for you. Yeah you can boost stuff but odds are you maxed the limit out already, and the rules aren't clear if the boost breaks the restriction on attribute or not. If not boosting them makes the limb useless, as you break the limb cap.

Now the fluff talking about using it on cyber eyes, so clearly they are using to break the perception bonus there, which is perfectly legit and has it's uses. You can be super eye detective.

More interesting options-
A Smartlink like all devices, does actually have basic rating, (it's outlined on a table on 234 core). A Smartlink being "Basic cyberware" is device rating 2. Which makes the math workout nicely with it's +2 bonus. So arguably you can boost it's rating at +1 to attack per level of rating. Installing in hot swappable cyber eyes, and this could simplest solution to the other factors involved.

muscle replacement- this oldie but goodie doesn't carry any of the limb's restrictions language it's rating are predefined and scale cleanly. You overclock them all day.
 
Reaction enhancers the same, clearly not as effective as MBW or WR, but it would stack with stuff.

Dermal plating- i think this is self explanatory.

Skillwires- we have already discussed this

stuff that gets weird

Decks and commlinks- an implanted deck or commlink, should be a valid target for this effect, and they all have device ratings. What happens when you jack a deck's rating, the same but to a lesser degree a commlink? I think it's fire wall + device rating. Which if it is, mean you could jack commlink it's some sort matrix supper fortress.

Radar Sensor- this remember batman cellphone all around knowledge thing? Arguably you can achive something similar
(The radar sensor uses the same Visibility modifiers
as ultrasound but can penetrate a cumulative Structure
Rating equal to its own Rating x 5. Thus, a Rating 2 radar
sensor can penetrate two Rating 5 walls, or a single Rating
10 wall, or three Rating 3 walls, etc. )
Normally caps at 4, but we can fix that now so see though hold buildings no problem.

Bit of a stretch on the smartlink bit, as even deltaware only give +2 bonus (despite being device rating 5 or 6).

Using it on a limb directly isn't possible, as it has no ratings (unless you mean on its customization, which would be... weird). Using it on the enhancements to let you go beyond the normal attribute cap, to the +4 cap, though, should be fine at least at my tables.

Attribute stuff = good, but still +4 capped. Nothing to turn a nose up at though

Commlink and cyberdeck = These are actually just holders for the gear, not the gear itself. Additionally, device rating in these cases != the rating of the cyberware. They are actually completely different items for each rating, just with a convenient shared cyberware to implant it in.

Sensory stuff: Now THIS, this is where this power shines. It isn't game breaking, but you can pump your senses up really well, including with alternative implanted senses. I am actually fine with this, as its more situational than anything (aside from some really good perception visual checks, which have their own problems and counters). I actually enjoy the idea of the radar sensor wall seeing being boosted up, but, given it still costs a simple action to use each time and isnt a dynamic update, its good but not game breaking in any way. In the cae of the ultrasound sensor ware... I still don't think it makes the ware worth it, as it kinda sucks, but buffing it with this isnt going to break the game (or make it good, at least compared to sensor array with it in a cyberlimb)

[Marcus]

If we can get it errata away from things like MBW, and WRs, and instead focusing on the the ability to boost tech like the  smartlink it will be considerably better for everyone.  Breaking skill pools, and crushing the initiative track, is what brings the nerf bat. Adding 5 or 6 to shooting on the other hand is very useful for the archetype, it helps mitigate the M.A.D. and offer a different method of combat then pure agility shooting.

As to the deck and commlinks, I disagree, they are cyber-implants with an essence cost, and they have ratings. Nothing in the power says otherwise.

I  think the ability to see through the whole facility before you walk in could likely prove very disruptive in many runs.
Clearly some GM will adapt better to it then others.

[adzling]

ok heres your build

hes a techno-sam.

able to reliably net +4 cyberware rating when he threads his overdrive complex form he can push his move by wire 1 system past its limits to rating 5!

his resulting 28+2d6 initiative nets him 4 initiative passes.

rawking 15 dice with his shooters he can pump that up to 18 with the help of diagnostics from a registered machine sprite.

he pretty dodgy with 12 dice, 17 when he goes full defense, which he has initative to do every combat turn with little penalty.

in fact hes so fast in meatworld he can just hack entirely from AR if he likes with a dice pool of 14 against hosts he can get into decent techno territory with a sprite assist.

he can always resort to puppeteer if he likes.

when he needs to slot a skill he doesn't have (say to drop a grenade from his ares alpha on target) he can use his skllsoft subscription to load any rating 4 almost instantly.
as long as he remembers to overdrive his skilljack to a rating 4, easy for him.

judicious use of psyche ensures his sustaining penalties are halved (-2 for both overdrive threads or -1 if he doesn't need the skillz)

welcome to the new world

mechadept sam

priority build
resonance A/ attributes B/ resources C/ skills D/ metatype E

METATYPE: HUMAN
B 1, A 5, R 4/5/8, S 2, W 5, L 6, I 5, C 1, ESS 3.02, EDG 2, R 3(4)
Condition Monitor (P/S): 9 / 11
Armor: 15
Limits: Physical 4, Mental 8, Social 4
Physical Initiative: 9/13+1D6 / 28+2d6
Matrix Initiative: 11+4D6
Active Skills: Automatics (Assault Rifles +2, Machine Pistols +2) 6, Compiling (Fault Sprites +2/ Machine Sprites +2) 3, Computer (Matrix Perception +2) 6, Hacking (vs. Hosts +2) 6, Perception (Visual +2) 2, Registering (Fault Sprites +2/ Machine Sprites +2) 3, Software (overdrive+2) 6
Qualities:  Positive Quality –mechadept stream, Biocompatibility (Cyberware), SINner (Corporate SIN): ?, Technomancer
Augmentations:
   Move-by-Wire System (1)
   Skilljack (Alphaware) (2)
   Smartlink (Alphaware)
Gear:
   Ballistic Mask (Customized)
   Contacts (3) w/ Flare Compensation, Low Light Vision
   Identity: Specify Name w/ (1 month) Wireless Skillsoft Networks, Platinum
   Psyche x4
   Renraku Sensei
   Sleeping Tiger w/ Custom Fit, Holster, Newest Model, Ruthenium Polymer Coating (3)
Weapons:
   Ares Alpha [Assault Rifle, Acc 7, DV 11P, AP -2, SA/BF/FA, RC 2, 42 (c)] w/ Grenade Launcher, Smartgun System, Internal
      Ares Alpha Grenade Launcher [Grenade Launcher, Acc 6, DV By Ammo, AP –, SS, 6 (c)] w/ Smartgun System, Internal
   Ares Alpha Grenade Launcher [Grenade Launcher, Acc 6, DV By Ammo, AP –, SS, 6 (c)] w/ Smartgun System, Internal
   Remington Suppressor [Machine Pistol, Acc 8, DV 7P, AP -1, SA/BF, RC 3, 15 (c)] w/ Gas-Vent System (3), Silencer/Suppressor, Smartgun System, External
Starting ¥: 5,000 + (1D6 × 20)¥
Ammunition & Resources:
   Ares Alpha - unloaded
   Ares Alpha Grenade Launcher - unloaded
   Remington Suppressor - unloaded
   Edge Pool - 0/2

[kainite311]

ok heres your build

hes a techno-sam.

able to reliably net +4 cyberware rating when he threads his overdrive complex form he can push his move by wire 1 system past its limits to rating 5!

his resulting 28+2d6 initiative nets him 4 initiative passes.

rawking 15 dice with his shooters he can pump that up to 18 with the help of diagnostics from a registered machine sprite.

he pretty dodgy with 12 dice, 17 when he goes full defense, which he has initative to do every combat turn with little penalty.

in fact hes so fast in meatworld he can just hack entirely from AR if he likes with a dice pool of 14 against hosts he can get into decent techno territory with a sprite assist.

he can always resort to puppeteer if he likes.

when he needs to slot a skill he doesn't have (say to drop a grenade from his ares alpha on target) he can use his skllsoft subscription to load any rating 4 almost instantly.
as long as he remembers to overdrive his skilljack to a rating 4, easy for him.

judicious use of psyche ensures his sustaining penalties are halved (-2 for both overdrive threads or -1 if he doesn't need the skillz)

welcome to the new world

mechadept sam

priority build
resonance A/ attributes B/ resources C/ skills D/ metatype E

METATYPE: HUMAN
B 1, A 5, R 4/5/8, S 2, W 5, L 6, I 5, C 1, ESS 3.02, EDG 2, R 3(4)
Condition Monitor (P/S): 9 / 11
Armor: 15
Limits: Physical 4, Mental 8, Social 4
Physical Initiative: 9/13+1D6 / 28+2d6
Matrix Initiative: 11+4D6
Active Skills: Automatics (Assault Rifles +2, Machine Pistols +2) 6, Compiling (Fault Sprites +2/ Machine Sprites +2) 3, Computer (Matrix Perception +2) 6, Hacking (vs. Hosts +2) 6, Perception (Visual +2) 2, Registering (Fault Sprites +2/ Machine Sprites +2) 3, Software (overdrive+2) 6
Qualities:  Positive Quality –mechadept stream, Biocompatibility (Cyberware), SINner (Corporate SIN): ?, Technomancer
Augmentations:
   Move-by-Wire System (1)
   Skilljack (Alphaware) (2)
   Smartlink (Alphaware)
Gear:
   Ballistic Mask (Customized)
   Contacts (3) w/ Flare Compensation, Low Light Vision
   Identity: Specify Name w/ (1 month) Wireless Skillsoft Networks, Platinum
   Psyche x4
   Renraku Sensei
   Sleeping Tiger w/ Custom Fit, Holster, Newest Model, Ruthenium Polymer Coating (3)
Weapons:
   Ares Alpha [Assault Rifle, Acc 7, DV 11P, AP -2, SA/BF/FA, RC 2, 42 (c)] w/ Grenade Launcher, Smartgun System, Internal
      Ares Alpha Grenade Launcher [Grenade Launcher, Acc 6, DV By Ammo, AP –, SS, 6 (c)] w/ Smartgun System, Internal
   Ares Alpha Grenade Launcher [Grenade Launcher, Acc 6, DV By Ammo, AP –, SS, 6 (c)] w/ Smartgun System, Internal
   Remington Suppressor [Machine Pistol, Acc 8, DV 7P, AP -1, SA/BF, RC 3, 15 (c)] w/ Gas-Vent System (3), Silencer/Suppressor, Smartgun System, External
Starting ¥: 5,000 + (1D6 × 20)¥
Ammunition & Resources:
   Ares Alpha - unloaded
   Ares Alpha Grenade Launcher - unloaded
   Remington Suppressor - unloaded
   Edge Pool - 0/2

How did you up Res without exceptional stat (otherwise max is 3 due to essence), and already ruled no submersion in previous errata
How do you get 7 hits off of skill 8 + res 4 (12 dice pool), which also means min 7 power level to thread? 
Have fun with that auto unrsisted 7-8 points of matrix damage to your MBW.
Enjoy that average 3 PHYSICAL damage from fade. Only healed thru time (like drain).
Rinse/repeat all the above damage for your skill jack (lesser for less power boost of course, but again more matrix damage and Fade)
Body 1 and charsima 1, I would bet most GM would call shenanigins, but YMMV.
Enjoy that physical direct spell / gas / toxin / drug side effects vs your body stat.
Just remember when hacking with sprite in teamwork you only go on the sprites Initiative (which is still decent)
-2 to meatworld in AR if I remember correctly
-2 per sustained complex form (so -4 if you have both going)
To me it appears you made a glass cannon (that an adept or samurai slinging 18+ dice for attacks can achieve and still have stats) that gets one more pass at the cost of being incredibly flimsy in a fight vs counterpart street sams/phys adepts, no other abilities, and not really a good hacker, decent but not good at certain hacking, but no decker (no cybercombat, no electronic warfare if link locked). Yes you can petnomancer a bit, but your still gimped by level of sprites you can compile without hurting yourself to get a good one for actual hacking (resonance level hampers this in compiling, and power level)

[daidalon]

Adzling, that skillsoft subscription is completely unmaintainable in missions and any non-prime games. It costs as much as a 20k PER MONTH, and thats all you ever get. Using that as your basis, unless this is literally a 1 off char, is completely pointless point of argument.


Also, as said a million times, with a rating 4 skillsoft thats all you get. No amount of overdrive will EVER improve your skillrating as its gated by the super expensive skillsoft, not the skillwires.


Edit: Also, you have literally no lifestyle listed, along with what was said above. You also forgot to pay for that first month of your unmaintainable point of argument.

You also flatlined most of your non-murder attributes I see, and still can't use any of that edge you have on... well, nearly anything by the looks of it.

Also, pretty sure you have FAR too many skills for skills D. Same with attributes, but it is past midnight and may have bad mathed those.

You are not acounting for the 2 sustaining penalties you are eating to use any of your activesofts.

I can keep going, but this is not a valid char at all.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

To change the topic for a bit;

Does Kill Code make it even more prudent to run Wireless Off all the time?

I mean, Team PANs are not terribly practical with the ruling that no device can be master and a slave.
And now on top of that, you can be penalized for being linked in a PAN without any MARKs required against you (so there is no way your team / decker can even know it is happening) with the Tag Matrix Action, page 40.

The effect is that a number of targets equal to the net hits on a Computer + Logic [Data Processing] v. Sleaze + Intuition test get highlighted giving your teammates (who can see AROs) up to 2 dice in penalties from Visibility and Lighting negated for each target, plus an addition Take Aim can be used against the target as a Free Action.

It is starting to look like Wireless Off is the only way to go....

[kainite311]

To change the topic for a bit;

Does Kill Code make it even more prudent to run Wireless Off all the time?

I mean, Team PANs are not terribly practical with the ruling that no device can be master and a slave.
And now on top of that, you can be penalized for being linked in a PAN without any MARKs required against you (so there is no way your team / decker can even know it is happening) with the Tag Matrix Action, page 40.

The effect is that a number of targets equal to the net hits on a Computer + Logic [Data Processing] v. Sleaze + Intuition test get highlighted giving your teammates (who can see AROs) up to 2 dice in penalties from Visibility and Lighting negated for each target, plus an addition Take Aim can be used against the target as a Free Action.

It is starting to look like Wireless Off is the only way to go....

It does seem that way offhand. Those new matrix actions look fairly easy to pull off at gibing someone's tech for a few combat turns, and simple action to boot? Wondering if they are making the deckers/hackers actually defend and attack in matrix during a firefight vs cyber arm + weapon = secondary gun guy. Seems to be making having a matrix operator in a firefight actually doing matrix things (defense/offense) vs only matix when it is time to hack an option. Adding another layer of complexity to the firefight now and new tactics. I am curious to see how this plays out.

[kainite311]

Adzling, that skillsoft subscription is completely unmaintainable in missions and any non-prime games. It costs as much as a 20k PER MONTH, and thats all you ever get. Using that as your basis, unless this is literally a 1 off char, is completely pointless point of argument.

Also, as said a million times, with a rating 4 skillsoft thats all you get. No amount of overdrive will EVER improve your skillrating as its gated by the super expensive skillsoft, not the skillwires.

Also, pretty sure you have FAR too many skills for skills D. Same with attributes, but it is past midnight and may have bad mathed those.

You are not acounting for the 2 sustaining penalties you are eating to use any of your activesofts.

Forgot about the level max on subscription softs.... good point

Back of Napkin math I see 42 pts worth of skills(and specializations). 15 points (3 level 5 skills for techno) still means 27 pts? so 5 too many? not as bad as I initally thought, but still kill off almost 2 of those level 3 skill sets (well 1 once you get rid of one with 2 specializations)... Either way your skill less wonder just got a lot more narrower in being a skill less wonder outside of shooting a gun...

[Reaver]

yes there are many ways to break the game/ exploit poorly written rules.

however there is no reason why we can't fix those exploits and still have a great, fun game.

in fact i'd say it would be more fun and a better game without the stupid exploits.

to turn it around, why even have the exploits in the game in the first place, what do they add?

Dude, don't get me wrong, you and your errata team get a big "Thumbs Up" from me. Sure, I have had some heated debates and full out arguments with you, and members of your errata team at times, but (I hope) we all know it comes from a labor of love for the game... And I do respect the work you guys do.

And I am also a realist. Of the quality of Catalyst's books - and their physical/financial limitations (Catalyst is a SMALL company!) So as much as I defend Catalyst and the freelancers, I also know you guys in errata got your work cut out for you

But at the end of the day, this is also a game, and the player base wants options. And with those options comes exploits. Its just the way of the world.
It's easy to police when it just one book, but when its 10, 12, 15 books, each coming with dozens of new options... Well abuse and exploits will always slip in.


And "Balance" is not something that is easily defined in a RPG... especially one as big as SR. What I find to be totally fine, you might find to be abusive, and Firebug may think is an utter joke

I would much rather see you guys worry about poorly written options and clearing up ambiguity then worrying about "balance" or option combination exploits.

Leave that up to us GMs to find what works at our tables

this way maybe the best of both worlds can happen; The players can have their options, the GM can have their clarity to see if their is something they consider abusive...
 

[Michael Chandra]

Apparently these heated debates have been going on for so long, it's now attracting spambots. Maybe it'd be better to continue the debate elsewhere in a civil manner? =) Meanwhile, as an agent I don't have access to the book yet so still can't give my first impression.

[Marcus]

The build is functional primarily b/c it's gonna always gonna go first. It's flexable b/c it's 6 rating skill soft.
 As to if you can pay sub I have done it several games. Really up to your GM. You can certainly do it in missions play.
If you don't like thats, fine but, keep in mind plenty of current TM builds could easily be adapted to this.

Anyways, I don't think anyone has become uncivil over the course of the conversation.

I'm fine with restart the converation some where else. Do folks have an idea how to fix the power?