[Seras]

Drugs are much cheaper than ware in Shadowrun and it is metioned that gangs and other start up and wanna bees use them, because the cannot afford anything else.

I am thing about gang characters who use biocomps and injectors  with cram/jazz/ Kamikaze.

Now obiously they would not be using the drung all the time ( the rules do not work like that ), more like wireless activation before action.

Naturally beeing low life they would also distribute it on the street to make some Nuyen..

What is your experiance on drugs vs. ware.

[fseperent]

Might work, until the character gets addicted to their own products.
Speedballing, or cocktailing, will get them hooked quicker.

Dealing might get your character unwanted attention, if not busted by the cops.

Using custom drugs might be an option.
I know there is a thread in the Gear section with some good blends.

[Marcus]

It's very doable, the drug rules with a little preparation are in general pretty easy to deal with.
The only downside is you need some preptime to activate. Which isn't a big if your attacking but it's fairly serious if your defending.
Be careful not to go to far. The serious combat drug come with unsoakable stun when you come down, anything that has i would stay away from it's very good way to end up dead. Forget k12 even exists.

Personally I think ware is the safer solution, but drugs are damn cheep, and fights just aren't usually that common.

[Glyph]

Drugs in Shadowrun are inferior to augmentation - rather than giving you a permanent boost, they give you a temporary boost, and then a crash.  They are a viable way for a GM to make an encounter with gangers or security guards more dangerous without giving them unrealistic stats or gear.  Cram, Jazz, Kamikaze, and Nitro are all good choices for this.  For PC's, it is typically not worth it, although an injector with a custom-designed drug (using the rules in Chrome Flesh) could be useful to make a character even more fearsome, in an emergency.  Regular use, on the other hand, will introduce the character to Shadowrun's punishing addiction rules.

[Reaver]

In theory, it works. On paper it works. In practice, it falls apart.

Now, this really depends on play style and the table. But generally drugs are good for 'burst' encounters where the User can get High, unload on a target, then rest up.

This doesn't work in practice on a run. On a run, you are generally spending large amounts of time moving from event to event - which players forget about.

For example: the User loads up on chems outside the lobby before he has to sneak in and get to the 15th floor Management offices. Around the game table this could be over in 3 to 5 dice rolls. In GAME, this could be 40 to 70 minutes of sneaking through empty rooms avoiding drones, censores and guards! By the time actual combat comes up, it could be 3 hours after he took them - meaning not only are they not effective, he's crashing. But from a player perspective, its only been 5 minutes....


So, they really are a case of "know your table".

[adzling]

i dont know i think it can mostly work.

they can take the qualities and 'ware that make them pretty immune to addiction
a bad roll can screw them but edge, right?
narco drops the stun damage to 4, which is easily manageable.
anyhoo i think it could be viable, depending on the role you're building for.


example, Tokyo missions legal elf juicer face.
this build rolls 14 dice for addiction tests (kamikaze is threshold 3)
due to narco he's a monster when running kamikaze B:6, A:8, S:6, W:6 10+3d6 initiative.
now it will only last for (10x1d6)/2 minutes but that's more than enough to get through a firefight or two.
and you don't need initiative when out of combat, even if you are sneaking through a building etc.
alternately Cram lasts 6 hours (for him) and will confer R:7 and initiative 12+2d6

METATYPE: ELF
B 2, A 6, R 5, S 3, W 4, L 2, I 5, C 8, ESS 5.025, EDG 1, M 4
Condition Monitor (P/S): 9 / 10
Armor: 13
Limits: Physical 5, Mental 5, Social 11
Physical Initiative: 10+1D6
Active Skills: Con (Fast Talking +2) 6, Gymnastics 1, Impersonation (Vocal +2) 5, Influence Group 5, Leadership (Command +2) 6, Negotiation (Bargaining +2) 6, Palming (Pickpocket +2) 2, Perception (Visual +2) 2, Sneaking (Urban +2) 4, Unarmed Combat (nervestrike +2) 6
Languages: English (Speak +2) 4, Japanese N, Russian (Speak +2) 2, Sperethiel (Speak +2) 2
Metatype Abilities: Enhanced Senses: Low-Light Vision
Qualities: Adept, Born Rich, Consummate Professional, Drug Tolerant, Dry Addict (Moderate): ?, Impassive, Mentor Spirit: Raven, Poor Self Control - Attention-Seeking, Prejudiced (Biased): Elf
Adept Powers: Authoritative Tone (2), Combat Sense (1), Commanding Voice (19dicepool vs.  Willpower + Intuition), Nerve Strike, Traceless Walk, Ventriloquism (4m), Voice Control (1) (14dicepool[5] vs. Voice rec. x 2 or PER + INT)
Augmentations:
   Narco
   Nephritic Screen (Used) (6)
   Striking Callus
   Striking Callus
   Striking Callus
   Striking Callus
   Synch
   Tetrachromatic Vision
Gear:
   Black Panther
   Charmer w/ Duration Enhancer (1), Inhalation Enhancer, Shock & Awe (1), Speed Demon (1)
   Cram
   Defender w/ Crush (1), Inhalation Enhancer
   Erika Elite
   Jazz
   Kamikaze
   Sleeping Tiger w/ Custom Fit, Holster, Newest Model, Ruthenium Polymer Coating (3)
Starting ¥: 1,755 + (1D6 × 20)¥
Ammunition & Resources:
   Edge Pool - 0/1

[Hobbes]

The Addiction rules in Shadowrun are easily gamed, most any character can be built to pass addition tests with buying hits.  Between Narco and the higher grades of drugs you can mitigate crashes or if you have access to the Detox spell you can basically ignore them.

Narco is one of the best Augmentations in the game.  If nothing else running designer Novacoke and Psyche giving you a +2 to four stats and a few other buffs for a minor investment.  Addiction threshold of 2 is easily managed and both last several hours.  With Designer grade Novacoke you've got less than an hour of "downtime" from the crash. 

If you're a mage (or Adept with Adept Spell or Barehanded Adept) Detox spell means no crash, and you've likely got a high Willpower to start with for addiction tests.  Without Narco you don't get as much of a Stat bump, but never crashing means you can keep a continuous buff going for days if you really need to.  And Detox means your Juicer Muggle buddies on the team can also ignore crashes. 

As always Burnouts get the best of both worlds.  Narco plus the Detox spell means cheap stat boosts for days.  Just swap out whatever you're on for whatever you'll need.

IMO the stat boosts from Drugs in Shadowrun are too much for what they cost, and the systems / downsides in game meant to balance them are too easily gamed or not harsh enough.

[Hobbes]

example, Tokyo missions legal elf juicer face.
this build rolls 14 dice for addiction tests (kamikaze is threshold 3)

Missions you can explicitly buy hits for Addiction tests as they are a down time test.  You literally have to buy hits so you never need more than 12 dice for Addiction tests in Missions, usually 8 is enough if you're using Pharma grade or better, or using something threshold 2.

[Michael Chandra]

Detox doesn't mitigate stun damage right?

[adzling]

nope, it only mitigates/ removes the non-damaging side effects

[Marcus]

If you take the time to fully read of the addiction rules and related options there is no doubt you can beat the test, there risk but it's tiny.
And so long as you initiate combat there isn't really a problem. The other direction is the issue.
In a system were most combats are resolved in the first couple passes you really don't want to be the one Using your first action to pop your combat drugs, even if it's a free action.

But if you an find a way around that particular issue then it's workable solution.

Again it's not going to be for everyone, ware is more reliable, and even on min budget you can probably mange an extra d6 and a smartlink.

[adzling]

remade juicer with Detox via adept spell.

Quik-E
METATYPE: ELF
B 2, A 6, R 5, S 3, W 4, L 2, I 5, C 8, ESS 5.025, EDG 1, M 4
Condition Monitor (P/S): 9 / 10
Armor: 13
Limits: Physical 5, Mental 5, Social 11
Physical Initiative: 10+1D6
Active Skills: Con (Fast Talking +2) 6, Gymnastics 1, Impersonation 5, Influence Group 5, Leadership (Command +2) 6, Negotiation (Bargaining +2) 6, Palming (Pickpocket +2) 2, Perception (Visual +2) 2, Sneaking (Urban +2) 4, Spellcasting 1, Unarmed Combat (nervestrike +2) 6
Languages: English (Speak +2) 4, Japanese N, Russian (Speak +2) 2, Sperethiel (Speak +2) 2
Metatype Abilities: Enhanced Senses: Low-Light Vision
Qualities: Adept, Born Rich, Consummate Professional, Dead Emotion: ?, Drug Tolerant, Impassive, Mentor Spirit: Raven, Poor Self Control - Attention-Seeking, Prejudiced (Biased): Elf
Spells: Detox
Adept Powers: Adept Spell, Authoritative Tone (1), Commanding Voice (19dicepool vs.  Willpower + Intuition), Facial Sculpt (4 hours) (1) (6dicepool), Nerve Strike, Traceless Walk, Ventriloquism (4m), Voice Control (1) (14dicepool[5] vs. Voice rec. x 2 or PER + INT)
Augmentations:
   Narco
   Nephritic Screen (Used) (6)
   Striking Callus
   Striking Callus
   Striking Callus
   Striking Callus
   Synch
   Tetrachromatic Vision
Gear:
   Black Panther
   Cram
   Erika Elite
   Jazz
   Kamikaze
   Novacoke
   Sleeping Tiger w/ Custom Fit, Holster, Newest Model, Ruthenium Polymer Coating (3)
Starting ¥: 135 + (1D6 × 20)¥
Ammunition & Resources:
   Edge Pool - 0/1

[Lorebane24]

What, no auto-injectors?  They take up the tiniest smidgen of essence, and then you can dose yourself with a thought.

[adzling]

deffo need an autoinjector

here he is with Novacoke, Psyche and custom designer drug (warrior + shock and awe 2) running at the same time.

pretty scary stuff for a chargen, Tokyo missions legal character.
@20 dice for social tests, 22 dice for commanding voice, 16 dice for nerve strike.

well unless your oppo can turn off their hearing.

Quik-E
METATYPE: ELF
B 2/4, A 6/8, R 5/7, S 3/5, W 4/3, L 2/4, I 5/7, C 8/10, ESS 5.025, EDG 1, M 4
Condition Monitor (P/S): 10 / 10
Armor: 13
Limits: Physical 5, Mental 5, Social 11
Physical Initiative: 10/12+3D6
Active Skills: Con (Fast Talking +2) 6, Gymnastics 1, Impersonation 5, Influence Group 5, Leadership (Command +2) 6, Negotiation (Bargaining +2) 6, Palming (Pickpocket +2) 2, Perception (Visual +2) 2 (3), Sneaking (Urban +2) 4, Spellcasting 1, Unarmed Combat (nervestrike +2) 6
Languages: English (Speak +2) 4, Japanese N, Russian (Speak +2) 2, Sperethiel (Speak +2) 2
Metatype Abilities: Enhanced Senses: Low-Light Vision
Qualities: Adept, Born Rich, Consummate Professional, Dead Emotion: fear, Drug Tolerant, Impassive, Mentor Spirit: Raven, Poor Self Control - Attention-Seeking, Prejudiced (Biased): Elf
Spells: Detox
Adept Powers: Adept Spell, Authoritative Tone (1), Commanding Voice (20dicepool vs.  Willpower + Intuition), Facial Sculpt (4 hours) (1) (7dicepool), Nerve Strike, Traceless Walk, Ventriloquism (4m), Voice Control (1) (15dicepool[5] vs. Voice rec. x 2 or PER + INT)
Augmentations:
   Narco
   Nephritic Screen (Used) (6)
   Striking Callus
   Striking Callus
   Striking Callus
   Striking Callus
   Synch
   Tetrachromatic Vision
Gear:
   Black Panther
   Cram
   Erika Elite
   Jazz
   Kamikaze
   Novacoke
   Psyche
   Sleeping Tiger w/ Custom Fit, Holster, Newest Model, Ruthenium Polymer Coating (3)
   Warrior w/ Shock & Awe (2)
Starting ¥: 1,780 + (1D6 × 20)¥
Ammunition & Resources:
   Edge Pool - 0/1

[Hobbes]

Detox doesn't mitigate stun damage right?

If you Detox before the Crash the Drug effect stops, the Crash including the Stun damage, never happens.  Unless it's a random duration, really never an issue.