NEWS

Trigger Talk

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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #270 on: <04-05-11/0927:02> »
It still violates a few states high capacity laws (some states will consider it a high capacity semi-auto assault weapon with all the crazy restrictions they can invent).

Well, states can argue anything, really, but this is specifically why the magazine selector is manual. It's not really a 14-shell capacity shotgun. It's a 7-shell capacity shotgun (which is legal under all the state laws listed) with on-board storage for a second magazine.*

It's not that much different than taping two detachable box magazines together so you can switch between them quickly, and that's already a perfectly legal way of carrying extra ammo.

Also, it's a bullpup design (the action is behind the trigger, in the stock), so it's pretty darn compact.


-k

* - Note that Federal law requires that when hunting birds, you would have to insert plugs into the magazine tubes to reduce each tube's capacity to two. This ONLY applies to bird hunting, though, and apparently you can leave the plugs out if you are, say, defending your home.
« Last Edit: <04-05-11/0937:23> by KarmaInferno »

CanRay

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« Reply #271 on: <04-05-11/0959:39> »
Don't try to make logical sense out of firearms laws, there isn't any.  They're put into place as a compromise between Gun Control and Freedom of Firearm Ownership groups in Government.

Hell, don't try to make logical sense out of anything Gun Control people say at all.  *Shakes Head*
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savaze

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« Reply #272 on: <04-05-11/1012:19> »
Well, states can argue anything, really, but this is specifically why the magazine selector is manual. It's not really a 14-shell capacity shotgun. It's a 7-shell capacity shotgun (which is legal under all the state laws listed) with on-board storage for a second magazine.*

It's not that much different than taping two detachable box magazines together so you can switch between them quickly, and that's already a perfectly legal way of carrying extra ammo.

Also, it's a bullpup design (the action is behind the trigger, in the stock), so it's pretty darn compact.


-k

* - Note that Federal law requires that when hunting birds, you would have to insert plugs into the magazine tubes to reduce each tube's capacity to two. This ONLY applies to bird hunting, though, and apparently you can leave the plugs out if you are, say, defending your home.
As much as I agree with you, politicians suck!  The states in question will classify the shotgun as an assault weapon (they one-up'd the AWB), luckily it's only a few states that are like that.

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #273 on: <04-05-11/1022:26> »
The KSG isn't semi-auto. It's a pump shotgun, so the "assault weapon" laws don't apply.

Also, the "high capacity magazine" laws are different than the "assault weapon" laws. Many states retained the high-cap restrictions while dropping many of the other restrictions of the Assault Weapons Ban, specifically due to criticisms that many of the AWB restrictions were based on how dangerous weapons looked, rather on how they actually functioned.

Folding stocks? Pistol grips? Magazine positioning? Semi-auto weapons that merely LOOKED like an existing automatic weapon? How do these things actually make a weapon more deadly?

I recall a shotgun that the manufacturers modified so the pistol grip now had a thin strip of plastic running from the bottom of the grip back to the stock (and as such was no longer classified as a "pistol grip"). Magically, this somehow made the weapon less dangerous.


-k
« Last Edit: <04-05-11/1037:20> by KarmaInferno »

Digital_Viking

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« Reply #274 on: <04-05-11/1028:05> »
Makes me wish I had got my Class 1 FFL when I had the chance.
"Which is better and which is worse,I wonder - To understand or to not understand?"
"Understanding is always worse. To not understand is to never carry the burden of responsibility. Understanding is pain. But anything less is unacceptable."

CanRay

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« Reply #275 on: <04-05-11/1041:19> »
The KSG isn't semi-auto. It's a pump shotgun, so the "assault weapon" laws don't apply.

Also, the "high capacity magazine" laws are different than the "assault weapon" laws. Many states retained the high-cap restrictions while dropping many of the other restrictions of the Assault Weapons Ban, specifically due to criticisms that many of the AWB restrictions were based on how dangerous weapons looked, rather on how they actually functioned.

Folding stocks? Pistol grips? Magazine positioning? Semi-auto weapons that merely LOOKED like an existing automatic weapon? How do these things actually make a weapon more deadly?

I recall a shotgun that the manufacturers modified so the pistol grip now had a thin strip of plastic running from the bottom of the grip back to the stock (and as such was no longer classified as a "pistol grip"). Magically, this somehow made the weapon less dangerous.


-k
Add to that custom furniture that can be swapped out in one minute (Literally, one minute.  And the guy doing it wasn't even rushing.) transforming a completely legal Ruger Mini-14 into a completely illegal Ruger Mini-14.

The part that made my head hurt the most is that the cooling shroud, what would be considered a safety device on any other piece of equipment, was part of what made it illegal.
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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #276 on: <04-05-11/1051:29> »
The "why" is very simple, actually.

It was a "feel good" law made up by politicians that had little understanding of how firearms actually function.

It was intended to drum up political support. It had very little actual effect.

On a personal note, I hate laws like this, useless ones that are largely un-enforceable, because they weaken the entire body of law.

But we're veering towards political discussions, I think, so I'll stop.



-k

savaze

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« Reply #277 on: <04-05-11/1144:41> »
The KSG isn't semi-auto. It's a pump shotgun, so the "assault weapon" laws don't apply.

Also, the "high capacity magazine" laws are different than the "assault weapon" laws. Many states retained the high-cap restrictions while dropping many of the other restrictions of the Assault Weapons Ban, specifically due to criticisms that many of the AWB restrictions were based on how dangerous weapons looked, rather on how they actually functioned.

Folding stocks? Pistol grips? Magazine positioning? Semi-auto weapons that merely LOOKED like an existing automatic weapon? How do these things actually make a weapon more deadly?

I recall a shotgun that the manufacturers modified so the pistol grip now had a thin strip of plastic running from the bottom of the grip back to the stock (and as such was no longer classified as a "pistol grip"). Magically, this somehow made the weapon less dangerous.


-k
I'm completely in agreement with you.  My reasoning comes from working with the police in CA and having a lot of friendly arguments with lawyers.  The thing I heard constantly was that gun laws are as clear as mud.  When I quit working with the police I had to refit my remi 870 6+1 18" barrel and pistol grip/stock combo back to a normal stock with an 18.5" barrel so that it wouldn't be considered an 'assault weapon.'  For some dumb reason the law doesn't differentiate pump-action as something different than semi-auto (lawyer speak apparently). 

For the states that are against 2nd amendment rights laws are still in favor of banning and/or limiting 'scary' weapons, knives included.  The five states in question are not friendly to weapon owners and they are examples of worst-case scenarios with scare tactics and the like.  NY is now shaking down all businesses that sell folding knives that lock, and knives that can be opened one handed, with a several thousand dollar fine.  They've arrested hundreds on felony charges for possession of said knives, by stopping everyone with pocket clips (profiling in the most obnoxious and legal way).  Firearm laws there are on par with the previous AWB.  CA took the AWB a step further in nearly every way and they pass new restrictions every year.  The selection of weapons is limited very limited.  The amount of weapons seized every year is extremely high, and they all sadly get the chopped in half treatment.  They just passed a thing where all firearms must have a unique stamp on the hammer/firing pin (almost RFID ammo in practice). They also passed a law that requires a thumb-print with each purchase of ammo that's kept on record for five years, until it was recently overturned as being unconstitutional.  The list of weapons you can't bring into that state is obnoxiously long.  The weapons that were in the state before there laws passed had to be retrofitted to fit the law, unless you have an off the books weapon (usually personal weapons brought in by military personnel leaving the service)...

Those two states are always in the forefront of the news involving Knife Rights and the NRA, and pasted all over Soldier of Fortune when I occasionally poke around their site (not even mentioning all the magazines that cover all legal who-has in the weapon world).  I don't care for the nut jobs that try to convince everyone that inanimate, not free-willed objects kill people to get political currency and then pass laws to reflect the nonsense (and then expect law enforcement to be the bad guys).  I love living in AZ (outta the 17 states I've lived in now)!  I can visibly or conceal carry (without a permit) almost anywhere and when I call 911 when someones attempting to break in and the operator says "shoot 'em" I'm glad to have that option if I need it (and it's happened)!!!

That's my rant (a couple days of no sleep gets me ranting, sorry)... I'll leave the politics alone now, but I just wanted to say I understand where you're coming from.

CanRay

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« Reply #278 on: <04-05-11/1545:42> »
On a trip to the USA, some folks I heard about were doing some re-enacting with some Flintlock Muskets (Firearms under Canadian Law).  The border guard stopped them to ask the usual questions, one of which is, "Do you have any weapons or firearms of any sort?"

"Well, we have some Flintlocks."

"No, I mean REAL Firearms."

"Oh.  No then."

"Enjoy your stay!"

Glad to see there's some sanity.  Honestly, who is going to do a drive-by with a Muzzle Loader?   :P
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Mystic

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« Reply #279 on: <04-07-11/0331:24> »
More likely to blow yourself up.
Why in the frag did they put ME in charge?

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« Reply #280 on: <04-07-11/0401:54> »
If they're well made, and you know how to handle them, it's pretty safe. They're making those out of modern materials, and with modern tech. I haven't heard of one blowing up around here, and I have at least six bunches who use them - and more archaic blackpowder weapons - for a long time now in one day's hitchhiking range.
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Triggvi

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« Reply #281 on: <04-07-11/0414:05> »
More likely to blow yourself up.

The big reason flint locks blew up was soldiers under fire loading the rifle or musket with more than one round and powder and then trying to fire it. when you have loaded it with 3 or four rounds and powder before you actually get it to fire then the it explodes.
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Mindset

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« Reply #282 on: <04-07-11/0517:30> »
This is another"back in the day" post so I wanted to apologize about it up front for you young-ins who might have been naught but sperm when the following was relevant. So, ugh, yeah. Back in t he ol' days a few of us haunted a site that was dedicated and created for Shadowrun. It's defunct now but we had one user named Raygun and he made a special site dealing with guns and ammo in SR. I don't know all the rules for this here site but I hope me linking the following won't get me banned and corn holed for trying to help shed some realism on the topic of guns in this system...or a previous version of it at least. http://raygun.10gauge.de/

Raygun Was ahead of his time when it came to guns in SR 3. It would be great to see some of that realism transferred to SR4. Also, that cat Biometal does some killer illustrations of firearms. It'd be gravy to see the devs or art directors having him do more work for the sourcebooks.
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savaze

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« Reply #283 on: <04-07-11/0647:53> »
I agree with your friend Raygun quite a bit, there's areas where I diverge, but all in all it's good stuff.  I ponder, sometimes too loudly, about ammo and damage and how they need to be grounded in reality if they're based off it.  I have a nice size Word file going for home rules on ammo, weapons, and the like.  Kerenshara has a nice thread going on SR4 firearms over at dumpshock, if you're interested, though that might be like swearing over here...

Wayfinder

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« Reply #284 on: <04-07-11/1927:26> »
SR 3 is "back in the day"? Frag I feel old now.....

 

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