[Shinobi Killfist]

? Is the title. Wandering if they are alive for the purpose of contact preparations.

[Marcus]

Yes they have Sapience and an aura. And they really only need the aura to count as I understand it.

Now Are AI's alive? Do they have an aura?

[Cabral]

Yes they have Sapience and an aura. And they really only need the aura to count as I understand it.

Now Are AI's alive? Do they have an aura?

Only Number 5.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'd have to say "No."

Keep in mind that having an aura doesn't necessarily mean the thing is alive, in a rules mechanics-sense.  For example the earth itself has an aura, and for that reason some in-universe people claim the gaiasphere is a living entity.  But from a rules-mechanics standpoint, I don't think anyone's prepared to argue that hitting the ground counts as a "living entity" for the purposes of the contact trigger.

Also keep in mind that a homunculus doesn't have an aura. An astral form, sure.  But that's not the same thing as an aura.  For example, spells and foci have astral forms but not auras. Is there anything that ever says homunculi have auras?

[Marcus]

Also keep in mind that a homunculus doesn't have an aura. An astral form, sure.  But that's not the same thing as an aura.  For example, spells and foci have astral forms but not auras. Is there anything that ever says homunculi have auras?

By the rules it's sapient, which again by the rules means it thinks and makes choices, it has mental attributes, which is said to be a step up from animals according the critter section. Are you gonna say animals don't have aura or trigger contact triggers? Cause they sure as heck do both at my table.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

There's no debate as to whether animals are living things. But that's not the point: animals clearly have auras, but it's not clear that homunculi do.  Other ongoing magical effects have astral forms, not auras. 

A homunculus is an inanimate object that is infused with magic via the appropriate ritual. Ergo, even though it's neither a homunculus is more like an active focus than an animal.

I'd think we're able to agree inanimate objects are not living things, even with the whole gaiasphere thing muddying the waters?  That just leaves whether the magic that makes the inanimate object become a homunculus is also giving that inanimate object *life*.  In a rules mechanic sense: does the ritual bestow an astral form to the inanimate object or an aura?

If we disagree whether the ritual is giving life and an aura, or a magical effect and an astral form: then let's agree to disagree. We've argued enough before that I'm sure neither one of us will convince the other.

[Reaver]

As I recall, a homunculus is an inanimate object with a spirit bound to it....

[Marcus]

Then SSDR explain what Sapient is. It's alive and thinks and as such it must have an aura.

So to your mind do sprites not trigger contact triggers?

Watchers are spirits. Thus a watcher bound into an object has the aura the spirit bound into it.

The same way a body is an inanimate object if no longer has spirit in it. In the same way as Shediem possess bodies.

Shediem set off contact triggers and have auras?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well first of all I think sapience has nothing to do with the state of being alive.  Second of all, nowhere in the Homunculus rules does it say it's either alive or that it has has an aura which then implies it is alive.  OTOH pg 312, Auras and Astral Forms, establishes a trinary status for all things. They are either:

Living, and in possession of an aura.
Magical but not living, and in possession of an astral form.
None of the above, and having neither.

Homunculi are clearly not the third. Since there's nothing that says homunculi are alive, there's no reason to assume they are. Ergo, they're in the "magic" bucket and have an astral form, as far as I'm concerned. Spirits are alive and have auras, yes.  But the Homunculus rules establish numerous differences between them and spirits.

Then SSDR explain what Sapient is. It's alive and thinks and as such it must have an aura.

Sapience is defined on pg 400.  Note that a state of being alive or having an aura is not part of the definition. And obviously plenty of living things don't have sapience.  There is absolutely no correlation between having Sapience and being alive.

So to your mind do sprites not trigger contact triggers?

Nope.  Even if sprites had a corporal form with which they could contact a trigger, they don't count as living as far as having an aura.  You can't cast spells on sprites either, for this very reason.

(on the off chance you typo'd spirit, I'll answer that too)

I wouldn't call spirits "living" beings per se, but per pg 312 it does explicitly call out that they have auras rather than astral forms.  So yes, for the purposes of a contact trigger, I'd consider them "living".  Because they have an aura.

Watchers are spirits. Thus a watcher bound into an object has the aura the spirit bound into it.

As of 5th edition (maybe 4th, didn't play that one so much), watchers are no longer spirits.  I don't think they have a categorical name for what they are. From the first sentence on Watchers, pg 298:

Watchers are like spirits, but in actuality are entities born
from the ritual leader’s own mind rather than the metaplanes.

You're not "like" a spirit if you ARE a spirit.  Ergo, they're not spirits.  And just like homunculi (same page), it never says they have an aura or that they're alive.  Pg 312 doesn't say they have an aura, and they're clearly not mundane, so the remaining possibility is a magical effect that has an astral form rather than an aura.  Again, not a living thing. 

EDIT: The same way a body is an inanimate object if no longer has spirit in it. In the same way as Shediem possess bodies.

Shediem set off contact triggers and have auras?

EDIT ANSWER: Shedim are spirits.  Watchers are not.  Homunculi are not spirits nor are they watchers... they are homunculi.  Watchers and homunculi, not being spirits, don't have auras unless something says they do.  That leaves them with astral forms instead.

[Marcus]

Well first of all I think sapience has nothing to do with the state of being alive.  Second of all, nowhere in the Homunculus rules does it say it's either alive or that it has has an aura which then implies it is alive.  OTOH pg 312, Auras and Astral Forms, establishes a trinary status for all things. They are either:

Well you're very mistaken. As Spience says they are as smart as people see definition below. A Homunculus, has skills can aparently learn new ones (See below), has critter powers, can think and moved around by itself, and it can be killed, all of which clearly implies its alive. Can you think something not alive that can choose to learn new skill that not alive? Nothing in the rules says characters are alive at generation ether, it obvious.
 
Sapience
Type: P Action: Auto
Range: Self Duration: Always
Sapient critters are self-aware, capable of making
their own choices, and are generally at or above the level
of Homo sapiens. While most critters are considered Unaware (see p. 131) of any skill they don’t possess, sapient
critters are merely Untrained (see p. 131) and can default
normally. They are also capable of learning new skills if
they so choose.
Most sapient critters are mundane, but they are capable of Awakening and possessing a Magic attribute.
Awakened sapient critters are capable of learning any
magical task they set their minds to, and follow the same
rules for magic as normal characters. While no sapient
critters are known to have Emerged as technomancers,
the appearance of “technocritters” has led many scientists to believe that it’s only a matter of time—if it hasn’t
already happened.

Living, and in possession of an aura.
Magical but not living, and in possession of an astral form.
None of the above, and having neither.

None of that is in the rules, you may like imagine it is but ain't so. Watcher have ability choose to manifest (See below). So how to your mind is something not alive able to CHOOSE to manifest.
 
Astral Form
Type: M Action: Auto
Range: Self Duration: Always
A critter with this power only exists in the astral plane.
Only astral attacks or mana spells/powers may hurt an
astral critter; physical attacks or spells/powers have no
effect. The reverse is also true; an astral critter can only
affect dual-natured beings or those on the astral plane,
whether through astral projection or astral perception.
Critters with this power may manifest on the physical
plane in the same way as astrally projecting magicians
(see p. 313).

There is absolutely no correlation between having Sapience and being alive.

You meet a lot of things that have free will, choice and learn things aren't alive? This isn't a statistic model SSDR. We aren't analyzing probabilities here. We aren't searching for causality.  Dead things don't do any of those things.

As of 5th edition (maybe 4th, didn't play that one so much), watchers are no longer spirits.  I don't think they have a categorical name for what they are. From the first sentence on Watchers, pg 298:

Just to wrap this up once for all. Lets go look at what you referenced:
Watchers are like spirits, but in actuality are entities born
from the ritual leader’s own mind rather than the metaplanes. Page 298 First sentence under Watcher (Minion.)

So the rule say they are born.

born
/bôrn/
1.
past participle of bear1 (sense 4).
adjective
1.
existing as a result of birth.

birth
/bərTH/
noun
noun: birth; plural noun: births
the emergence of a baby or other young from the body of its mother; the start of life as a physically separate being.

QED the rule do say they are Alive, and that is RAW. So SSDR your whole argument is in fact founded on false assumption. I'd suggest reading more closely in the future. Good Night.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Being able to make your own choices or learning new skills has nothing to do with whether or not you have an aura.

And while there's thousands of years of philosophy to use in arguing about what is or is not life, for the purposes of the game we know that life is defined as whether or not you have an aura.

Not whether or not you have sapience.

[Marcus]

Being able to make your own choices or learning new skills has nothing to do with whether or not you have an aura.

And while there's thousands of years of philosophy to use in arguing about what is or is not life, for the purposes of the game we know that life is defined as whether or not you have an aura.

Not whether or not you have sapience.

Well as it happens the rules do say it's alive, therefore it has an aura, and so on and so forth. The point is clear.

[Kiirnodel]

The Contact Trigger for preparations only requires "the next living being to touch the preparation" for activating it. The argument of aura contact stems from people making arguments like "well I'm wearing thick gloves, so I'm not technically touching it" sort of shenanigans. This has prompted the idea of if your 'living aura' touches it, that triggers it too. Which also leads to a couple of work-arounds like Alchemy Gloves and Bio-pockets which dampen the effect of the magical aura and keeps the contact-trigger from setting it off regardless.

As for this discussion on auras and that relation to living things. Spells have auras (description of illusion spells pg 290), Preparations carry an aura (pg 304), and there are several instances of the wording "living things with auras" for determining things like the dice pools for resistance. This is mostly in reference to spells and effects being resisted with attributes (like Willpower or Logic), but objects not having these attributes and therefore resisting based on Force (for magical stuff) or Object Resistance or Structure/Body (for mundane).

Although Watchers and Homunculi aren't full-blown spirits, they do have their own forms, attributes, and Sapience, so I would argue that they are living by most definitions in the same way that a spirit would be. Whether or not they have an aura is functionally irrelevant. They follow all the standard rules for a Critter while they exist, which is about as close as I know of for Shadowrun defining a living thing.

[Marcus]

Kiir do you have an opinion on the AI question?

That whole line of inquiry may simply be a philosophy question. But I think it's interesting  and could be core of an interesting plot line.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

As for this discussion on auras and that relation to living things. Spells have auras (description of illusion spells pg 290), Preparations carry an aura (pg 304), and there are several instances of the wording "living things with auras" for determining things like the dice pools for resistance. This is mostly in reference to spells and effects being resisted with attributes (like Willpower or Logic), but objects not having these attributes and therefore resisting based on Force (for magical stuff) or Object Resistance or Structure/Body (for mundane).

See, now THIS is how you debate the rules.  By citing the rules.

And it's a great point. I would have been prepared to argue that the instances on 290 and 304 were more likely to be cases of sloppy technical writing/editing than being truly accurate given how pg 312 establishes what auras and astral forms are, and what sorts of things have them.

And in going to quote that passage, I realized there's more than one way to read it.  I have to concede it's actually my interpretation to say that it's a trinary paradigm (i.e. everything is in one of the three buckets, and only one of the buckets). It could also be read as saying an astral form is just a special kind of an aura, rather than being something other than an aura entirely.  That doesn't conflict with your citations, AND I also see that contrary to my memory it's saying the gaiasphere has an ASTRAL FORM and that is cited-in universe as proof of life, rather than an aura as I said upthread.

So yeah, Kiir I think that's the stronger reading.