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PiXeL01

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« Reply #105 on: <05-03-19/2128:51> »
Yeah, I don’t really understand why they are changing metas so drastically. For five editions it’s been a static bonus to attributes.
What are trying to achieve?
If Tom Brady’s a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #106 on: <05-03-19/2131:59> »
I agree about Spirits being one of the most broken things about 5E... I don't recall hearing much of anything being said about them for 6E.  I guess I'll have to cross my fingers that they didn't drop the ball 2 editions in a row on them.

Yeah, I don’t really understand why they are changing metas so drastically. For five editions it’s been a static bonus to attributes.
What are trying to achieve?

Well the gist I'm getting is they're meant to be more easy to incorporate into character ideas.  Something Jason said in an interview is without penalties to mental stats, they're all equally viable as deckers, for example. The overall idea seems to be to make it less of an expensive choice in character generation to choose to play a meta.
« Last Edit: <05-03-19/2136:01> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

PiXeL01

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« Reply #107 on: <05-03-19/2146:17> »
So basically all metas are the same except for appearances?
Of course there may still be deviations in racial maximum but if all start 1/6 the difference seems almost none existent.   
If Tom Brady’s a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #108 on: <05-03-19/2152:45> »
Humans still have extra edge, and in 6E that's a bigger deal than in 5E.

The metas tho have higher racial maximums (and apparently no lower racial maximums). Plus you can put the "special attribute points" into not just edge/magic/resonance, but any attribute that gets a boosted maximum in.

So trolls and orks can be made stronger, and it's *slightly* easier to do it, too.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #109 on: <05-03-19/2153:43> »
I agree about Spirits being one of the most broken things about 5E... I don't recall hearing much of anything being said about them for 6E.  I guess I'll have to cross my fingers that they didn't drop the ball 2 editions in a row on them.

Yeah, I don’t really understand why they are changing metas so drastically. For five editions it’s been a static bonus to attributes.
What are trying to achieve?

Well the gist I'm getting is they're meant to be more easy to incorporate into character ideas.  Something Jason said in an interview is without penalties to mental stats, they're all equally viable as deckers, for example. The overall idea seems to be to make it less of an expensive choice in character generation to choose to play a meta.

Sounds like a bad idea to me. Having limitations makes your character more interesting. 1 or 2 dice wont break your decker. Also its illogical as with trolls having a higher max in str/body you re effectively telling my human he's less viable in melee or as a tank. 

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #110 on: <05-03-19/2156:35> »
Humans still have extra edge, and in 6E that's a bigger deal than in 5E.

The metas tho have higher racial maximums (and apparently no lower racial maximums). Plus you can put the "special attribute points" into not just edge/magic/resonance, but any attribute that gets a boosted maximum in.

So trolls and orks can be made stronger, and it's *slightly* easier to do it, too.

Edge seems far less of a deal in this edition, used much more frequently but way way weaker in its use.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #111 on: <05-03-19/2200:49> »
So basically all metas are the same except for appearances?
Of course there may still be deviations in racial maximum but if all start 1/6 the difference seems almost none existent.

God I wish they had gone back to previous editions where it metas actually had penalties in stats and not just a lower max. Now no lower max except for humans I guess who are capped at 6 for everything but edge which getting to 7 is kind of pointless as you can work the system to get 1-2 points a action and the most you can have for anyone at one time is 7.  So Troll with 6 just hits 7 because his punch has a higher attack value than the defenders defense value, you start at 7 and go nowhere when your gun does the same.

If this is how it is, I'm disappointed.

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #112 on: <05-03-19/2209:57> »
My take on the Armor and Metahuman changes is that they are meant to break the "cookie cutter" molds.

No longer will "all*" Shadowrunners wear:

Big Game Hunter OR Globetrotter Jacket OR Armored Jacket
plus
Ballistic Mask AND / OR Helmet
plus
Forearm Guards
With maybe an little Second Skin to mix things up.

*Alright, not all...  But enough.

No longer will Deckers only* be Humans or Elves.

Etc.

Your Millage May (Indeed) Vary on this one.  I'm hoping for more diversity in the new edition.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #113 on: <05-03-19/2213:58> »
My take on the Armor and Metahuman changes is that they are meant to break the "cookie cutter" molds.

No longer will "all*" Shadowrunners wear:

Big Game Hunter OR Globetrotter Jacket OR Armored Jacket
plus
Ballistic Mask AND / OR Helmet
plus
Forearm Guards
With maybe an little Second Skin to mix things up.

*Alright, not all...  But enough.

No longer will Deckers only* be Humans or Elves.

Etc.

Your Millage May (Indeed) Vary on this one.  I'm hoping for more diversity in the new edition.

Seems like less diversity to me. Flaws are part of what make things diverse.

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #114 on: <05-03-19/2215:52> »
Seems like less diversity to me. Flaws are part of what make things diverse.

Flaws, or perhaps the prevention thereof, are what encourage people to min-max.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #115 on: <05-03-19/2234:21> »
Seems like less diversity to me. Flaws are part of what make things diverse.

Flaws, or perhaps the prevention thereof, are what encourage people to min-max.

People who want to min max min max. Flaws don’t change that. But hey tall human decker sounds so different from short human decker.

PiXeL01

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« Reply #116 on: <05-03-19/2238:49> »
It might have the exact opposite effect, making metas even less attractive.

1e - Metas were A
2e - Metas were A, optional rule was C
3e - the spread started
4e - *didnt play this system*
5e - trolls B, Orcs C, Elves and Dwarves D

It appears some things are going backwards
If Tom Brady’s a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

BeCareful

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« Reply #117 on: <05-03-19/2355:06> »
So far, I am hopefully optimistic about 6th edition, mainly because it sounds like it's got a chance to, let's say, refocus with greater clarity in its rules. While I do like the plans for streamlining the Matrix, I also worry about the magic success & drain soak test being the same roll. Yes, it removes a roll, but it also makes failures potentially more dangerous.
As for changes to metatypes, I hope there's more to it than what's currently been revealed. I'm happy to hear that it'll make more niches more easily workable regardless of metatype, but I didn't think that was much of a problem with how it worked in 5th. I guess there's more to it that'll hopefully all make sense?
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Tecumseh

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« Reply #118 on: <05-04-19/0057:16> »
4e - *didnt play this system*
5e - trolls B, Orcs C, Elves and Dwarves D

4E was the metahumans edition, at least from an optimization standpoint. The problem was that the Build Point cost of certain metas was less than what they netted you in attributes. Mathematically, you should only do one of two things:
1) choose an elf if you needed Charisma (e.g. for a face or a shaman); otherwise,
2) play an ork, because you got 50 BP of attributes for 20 BP of chargen points, plus low-light vision for free on top of that.

So from that standpoint 5E was an improvement.

Small quibble, but in 5E dwarves require Priority C.

The 5E developers were fairly open about how hard it was to balance the metatypes with the priority system, especially for trolls. If I recall, one of their primary goals was to avoid the "skinny dwarf/ork/troll" problem (common in 4E) where, for a small priority price, you could have a metatype with all the Body and Strength you would ever need, so there was no incentive to add any extra Attribute points into them. If dwarves and orks essentially get 5 free attribute points, and trolls get 8, then that needs to be balanced against the fact that +1 Priority point in Attributes only gets you 2-4 extra Attribute points. That's why dwarves and orks start at C and trolls start at B.

While that works mathematically, it ignores the reality that not all Attributes are created equal. Body and Strength are linked to few skills in 5E. Body is worse that Reaction/Intuition at avoiding damage, and is largely overwhelmed by basic armor anyway. Strength is important for melee combatants and little else.

There are ways around the above problems, like making specific attributes easier to advance for some metas than others, but that adds another layer of rules on top of an already crunchy system that's famously intimidating for new players. There's a lot to be said for Anarchy's chargen system in terms of approachability, where anyone - regardless of their familiarity with RPGs - can sit down and have a character up and running within 15 minutes. From what I gather, 6E will be a step in that direction, to try bypass the worst of the analysis paralysis that many people suffer in 5E's chargen.

I'll avoid passing judgement until I see the system myself, but of all the things I've heard so far it's not particularly high on my list of concerns.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #119 on: <05-04-19/0420:22> »
I'll avoid passing judgement until I see the system myself, but of all the things I've heard so far it's not particularly high on my list of concerns.
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