[Shinobi Killfist]

So in SR6 we will see mage 'riggers' who use F3 or F4 spirit swarms in case the that the new combat system makes lower force spirits still a danger.

And if not 12 F1 spirits can cause a heck of a distraction while you still have a F6 spirit for combat.
Or maybe even two. Time it right and you easily have 15 hours to heal any drain with a big window for the run.

Sounds plausible.

With the difference between the fastest and the slowest end of the spectrum only being a single additional Major Action (aka attack) per Combat turn, overwhelming mass seems to be the way to go.
Which, incidentally shifts it all even more towards magerun, since having multiple (low level even) ghosts seems to be the way to go to get the biggest amount of Actions per player.
Not happy about this.

Yeah commanding drones and spirits makes sense as a minor action but when the imitative system is about giving piles of minor actions that convert at 4 to 1 for major it really helps people if have good minor actions.  Riggers and Mages and i'll mainly say mages because spirits are more disposable. But 3 aim actions or whatever just wont have the same oomph as commanding 3 spirits.

[dezmont]

Riggers did use intuition in 5e to shoot drone guns. It was just not well known because that rule was tucked away in the combat section with the grenade rules rather than in the rigger section for some reason. This meant that riggers used intuition for seeing and sneaking in drones, logic for shooting, and reaction to drive them, made extra confusing by the fact that the rules for using EWAR to see out of a drone instead of perception were in the gear section, while the rules for sneaking were in the rigging section, and the rules for shooting were in the combat section, while the explicit statement you use reaction did not exist and had to be inferred by nothing saying you didn't use reaction. It would be extremely hard for 6e riggers to be less understandable than 5e.

Multi-summoning and losing binding is one of those clever little changes I actually like. It SEEMS like a buff, but it is actually a pretty big nerf, because while you no longer have to spend a very token amount of nuyen on reagents and no longer have to invest skills, you now can't summon extremely high force spirits in downtime and nap off the drain. Binding meant that after your team's first run if any amount of time passed the mage now had up to their binding limit in powerful spirits ready to go. Now to have 3 force 6 spirits running around at once requires the mage to actually pay drain. It probably won't be THAT big a hit, the main benefit was less "I have a comically big spirit army" and more "I can pay the drain cost when it wouldn't actually be relevant" and spirits still seem plenty strong, but it definitely is a clever bit of design.

[Michael Chandra]

Riggers did use intuition in 5e to shoot drone guns. It was just not well known because that rule was tucked away in the combat section with the grenade rules rather than in the rigger section for some reason.

Oh you sweet summer child. The wars you've missed... Plenty of people who said 'nope, it says for remote Gunnery + Agility on page X, so jumped-in also uses Agility'.

[dezmont]

Riggers did use intuition in 5e to shoot drone guns. It was just not well known because that rule was tucked away in the combat section with the grenade rules rather than in the rigger section for some reason.

Oh you sweet summer child. The wars you've missed... Plenty of people who said 'nope, it says for remote Gunnery + Agility on page X, so jumped-in also uses Agility'.

I haven't missed those wars as far as I know, I just happen to know that the section you are referencing actually says remote uses logic+gunnery unless you found one I didn't, in which case... whoops! I have seen this debate enough to commit that section to memory.

The only references to gunnery using agility are that it is an agility linked skill (Which obviously doesn't prove anything because skills fail to use their linked attribute quite often, like EWAR) and the fact that if you are physically holding the gun while shooting it uses agility, otherwise remote gunnery systems use logic.

Of course the only reason I am so sure is that after my 5e book literally caught fire (long story) I got an RPG drivethru copy and gained the awesome power of control F, which lets you zoom through looking for stuff this scattered. And I am still like not 100% now that you said something, because it was indeed a hot mess.

[Michael Chandra]

I just happen to know that the section you are referencing actually says remote uses logic+gunnery unless you found one I didn't, in which case... whoops! I have seen this debate enough to commit that section to memory.

What an interesting way of phrasing that. Well, if you already actually know the section I'm referencing and the arguments people kept making, there's no need for me to quote the Control Device description from p238, or to start linking you to posts of people telling me I was wrong for claiming Gunnery + Logic, using p238 as their argument.

[dezmont]

I am just going to go cry in a corner because of course they found a way to reference agility to gunnery without using the term gunnery and the fallibility of knowledge is hitting me right in the essence.

[Ghost Rigger]

Speaking of Riggers, it seems the game is moving in the direction of making them pure mental based, since Intuition is used instead of reaction when jumped in. I like this a lot.
Now the question remains: does that mean logic is used instead of agility for jumped in gunnery tests? I surely hope so!

I don't quite like that. Reaction is in a weird space where you can make arguments for it being either physical or mental or even both, and if they take Reaction out of the equation for riggers then that makes it too easy to just dump all your points into the relevant stats.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Multi-summoning and losing binding is one of those clever little changes I actually like. It SEEMS like a buff, but it is actually a pretty big nerf, because while you no longer have to spend a very token amount of nuyen on reagents and no longer have to invest skills, you now can't summon extremely high force spirits in downtime and nap off the drain. Binding meant that after your team's first run if any amount of time passed the mage now had up to their binding limit in powerful spirits ready to go. Now to have 3 force 6 spirits running around at once requires the mage to actually pay drain. It probably won't be THAT big a hit, the main benefit was less "I have a comically big spirit army" and more "I can pay the drain cost when it wouldn't actually be relevant" and spirits still seem plenty strong, but it definitely is a clever bit of design.

It is a buff because the drain is less now. So they easily whistle up a spirit force for basically free at breakfast now. The fix for biding would to make the test much harder. If it was force x3 or force x4 and the reagents were expensive you wouldn’t see a spirit army outside end game. If it was force x1000 nuyen in cost and you were facing 24 dice how many force 6 spirits would you bind.

[Finstersang]

Multi-Summoning without Binding is the worst of the bad ideas I have heard so far. It shits right down the throat of everyone who rightfully complained about the ridicolous power level of summoning in 5E. Yes, even with the higher Drain Values.

Seriously, who wanted this?
"Gosh darnit, I wish it wouldn´t be so hard to summon an army of almost invicible combat assets that can walk through walls!"

And what the hell is even up with that Limit? Magic * 3? Are you kidding me? How do you even reach that number? That would be 18 Spirits on a Summoner with Magic 6! Or are we talking about Magic / 3 here and this is just a telephone game error? Because that would be at least somewhat reasonable.

[PiXeL01]

Speaking of Riggers, it seems the game is moving in the direction of making them pure mental based, since Intuition is used instead of reaction when jumped in. I like this a lot.
Now the question remains: does that mean logic is used instead of agility for jumped in gunnery tests? I surely hope so!

I don't quite like that. Reaction is in a weird space where you can make arguments for it being either physical or mental or even both, and if they take Reaction out of the equation for riggers then that makes it too easy to just dump all your points into the relevant stats.

The problem with Riggers is that they need too many stats to begin with. They are the only archetype which require above average if not high levels of attributes in both mental and physical attributes on top of a massive load of nuyen.
In SR5 they need Reaction, agility, willpower, logic, and intuition because they are matrix based. The only other archetype that attribute needy is the Technomancer. Everyone else only needs two or three.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Multi-Summoning without Binding is the worst of the bad ideas I have heard so far. It shits right down the throat of everyone who rightfully complained about the ridicolous power level of summoning in 5E. Yes, even with the higher Drain Values.

Seriously, who wanted this?
"Gosh darnit, I wish it wouldn´t be so hard to summon an army of almost invicible combat assets that can walk through walls!"

And what the hell is even up with that Limit? Magic * 3? Are you kidding me? How do you even reach that number? That would be 18 Spirits on a Summoner with Magic 6! Or are we talking about Magic / 3 here and this is just a telephone game error? Because that would be at least somewhat reasonable.

18 force 1 spirits.  That’s not much of a threat. Annoying more than anything. As a gm I’d be aoeing the team a lot of that was done.

[PiXeL01]

Maybe they would qualify for the grunt bonus? Or would that be npc only?

[markelphoenix]

Multi-Summoning without Binding is the worst of the bad ideas I have heard so far. It shits right down the throat of everyone who rightfully complained about the ridicolous power level of summoning in 5E. Yes, even with the higher Drain Values.

Seriously, who wanted this?
"Gosh darnit, I wish it wouldn´t be so hard to summon an army of almost invicible combat assets that can walk through walls!"

And what the hell is even up with that Limit? Magic * 3? Are you kidding me? How do you even reach that number? That would be 18 Spirits on a Summoner with Magic 6! Or are we talking about Magic / 3 here and this is just a telephone game error? Because that would be at least somewhat reasonable.

18 force 1 spirits.  That’s not much of a threat. Annoying more than anything. As a gm I’d be aoeing the team a lot of that was done.

Yeah, not seeing 18 f1 being a smart move. I would go for 3 f6 and call it a day :-p or maybe 3 f5 and 1 f3, or if you want to make your brain explode, 1 f8 2 f5. With the new healing rules, may actually be more beneficial to do f > magic rating if still allowed and take physical drain, have squad heal you up with medkits + magic

[Michael Chandra]

Yeah, not seeing 18 f1 being a smart move. I would go for 3 f6 and call it a day :-p or maybe 3 f5 and 1 f3, or if you want to make your brain explode, 1 f8 2 f5. With the new healing rules, may actually be more beneficial to do f > magic rating if still allowed and take physical drain, have squad heal you up with medkits + magic

Given how you can't spend 1 Edge to reroll all failures anymore, I suspect summoners will become more careful. But only time will tell in the end. Especially if your dicepool cannot reliably handle a F8. At 1/7 chance of taking 5+ drain and 52% chance to score 1+ services at 18 vs 16 dice, a F8 sounds rather risky and a waste of healing.

[PiXeL01]

Well, it takes 4 to reroll all failures now so every second or third round you can do it.