[TheWizurd]

1st off, modifiers are not removed. A bunch still came into play, most common are wound modifiers. As said above, they seem to replace some tables/modifiers. The physical exchange of tokens and the ability to modify pools with them is much more fun for the players. That is the point of playing a game. This gives a sense of reward.

2nd, Shadowrun isn't a simulation, that would be boring, just gives the illusion of one to create realism and depth. The new edge system just makes it more fast pace and fun.

3rd Don't judge it till you play it, period. I understand that this kind of debate is what online forums are for. I don't usually join forums for this reason. I have an ex-wife that's enough negativity for me. Unfortunately folks will look at the negativity and prejudge the game, that would be a mistake. I have played all editions, from  what I have seen, the box set, it points toward the best edition since third. Not hot on the art, but that might be the Grognard coming out in me.

[Ixal]

The only thing I am really worried about is the role of armor.
Would the combats have turned out very differently if all PCs had been naked?

[adzling]

The biggest Edge change is that you can reroll your enemy's dice! O_O

Yes...

"Realism" is not really a useful term for a game with technomancer elves, but I think there are genuine concerns at work. Most of these ideas float around in game design circles, but I'm making up my own labels for them.

Games can be "immersive" or "narrativist" (let's say). An immersive game is one in which the player and the character make decisions for essentially the same reasons. The character dives behind cover for protection from bullets; the player has them dive behind cover to get the bonus to armour. Essentially the same reason. A narrativist game is one in which the player makes decisions for completely different reasons from the character. The character loses his temper because the ork insulted his mother. The player has the character lose his temper to get a Fate point that she can use later.

Shadowrun has been immersive so far, but the new Edge system sounds like it might be narrativist. It might not be; hiding behind cover because you get Edge is not that different from doing it to get an armour bonus.

A separate distinction is that games can be "simulationist" or "gamist". In a simulationist game, bonuses and penalties all have sensible origins within the fiction. You get a bonus to armour because you are hiding behind a concrete wall, for example. In a gamist game, the bonuses and penalties come from the game mechanics, and might have no foundation in the fiction. You get a bonus to armour because you spent the Fate point you earned by having the character lose his temper.

Shadowrun has been broadly simulationist so far, but the new Edge system sounds rather gamist. "I successfully hacked this system because I hid behind a wall earlier." The implementation details really matter here, though, and I, at least, don't know those yet.

Then there is "realism", which means that the game mechanics model the way the fiction is supposed to work. (We had a great deal of trouble in Ars Magica trying to create realistic magic resistance, which in one sense is absurd, but in another makes perfect sense — the mechanics should reflect the way the fiction describes it.) The concerns about the Knowledge skills and Armor are about realism in this sense; the concern that the mechanics won't reflect the fiction.

If Sixth World makes Shadowrun narrativist and gamist, I think it will alienate a lot of existing players, but I don't think it is at all clear that it does. If nothing else, the Edge mechanic does not sound as though it dominates everything, and the attributes and skills are still immersive-simulationist.

This is an excellent post and does a good job of highlighting the changes in 6e's edge mechanic.
The new edge mechanic IS a highly gamey, narrative-driven core of the new system.

Whereas in 5e and earlier the game world reacted somewhat realistically to your actions via thresholds and modifiers directly related to the situation, now we have an edge mechanic that abstracts that so completely that your actions become divorced from outcomes.

You can shift the affect of wearing armor (edge gained) to jumping higher or driving better?

Sorry but that's the definition of idiocy in my book.

It's the death of realism and the triumph of the rule of cool.

Shadowrun is now Men in Black, 100%.

If you like that, awesome, you're gonna have a great time.

[Shinobi Killfist]

1st off, modifiers are not removed. A bunch still came into play, most common are wound modifiers. As said above, they seem to replace some tables/modifiers. The physical exchange of tokens and the ability to modify pools with them is much more fun for the players. That is the point of playing a game. This gives a sense of reward.

2nd, Shadowrun isn't a simulation, that would be boring, just gives the illusion of one to create realism and depth. The new edge system just makes it more fast pace and fun.

3rd Don't judge it till you play it, period. I understand that this kind of debate is what online forums are for. I don't usually join forums for this reason. I have an ex-wife that's enough negativity for me. Unfortunately folks will look at the negativity and prejudge the game, that would be a mistake. I have played all editions, from  what I have seen, the box set, it points toward the best edition since third. Not hot on the art, but that might be the Grognard coming out in me.

I don’t think anyone had claimed every single modifier was removed. Though if you are rolling into a edge system they probably should have. Ways to showcase challenge and difficulty, threshold increases, dice pool modifiers, edge thrown to the opposition, bonus dice to the opposition. That makes the game more complicated not less. And tracking edge doesn’t sound any faster than saying due to wind you lose 2 dice. Any player that argues and scrounges for dice will also argue and scrounge about edge.

If you want a less complicated and faster system the difficulty mechanic should be streamlined and universal. Not multiple systems depending on the situation.

[Moonshine Fox]

It's the death of realism

You keep using this phrase, but I don’t think it means what you are thinking it means.

Shadowrun has NEVER been a realism game. 4th and 5th were more gritty then the previous three editions, but the fact remains that it’s always had a number of levels of abstraction between mechanics and action. This is were role-play could take place beyond the simple scope of an arbitrary number that doesn’t begin to cover the vast nuance that exists in reality.

You may have liked how 4th and 5th did it’s massive crunch, but now we’re moving back to the lesser crunch in the style of 3rd and earlier that several seem to be hoping for, and that ttrpg players as a whole seem to be gravitating to right now.

I’m sorry if you don’t like it, and it’s ok to not like things, but you’ve been non-stop negative hate on this with only rumors and hearsay of the rules. Stop slamming so hard against those of us who do like what we’re seeing like we wrecked your car, burnt down your house, and killed your puppy.

[adzling]

It's the death of realism

You keep using this phrase, but I don’t think it means what you are thinking it means.

Shadowrun has NEVER been a realism game. 4th and 5th were more gritty then the previous three editions, but the fact remains that it’s always had a number of levels of abstraction between mechanics and action. This is were role-play could take place beyond the simple scope of an arbitrary number that doesn’t begin to cover the vast nuance that exists in reality.

You may have liked how 4th and 5th did it’s massive crunch, but now we’re moving back to the lesser crunch in the style of 3rd and earlier that several seem to be hoping for, and that ttrpg players as a whole seem to be gravitating to right now.

I’m sorry if you don’t like it, and it’s ok to not like things, but you’ve been non-stop negative hate on this with only rumors and hearsay of the rules. Stop slamming so hard against those of us who do like what we’re seeing like we wrecked your car, burnt down your house, and killed your puppy.

I've been playing since 1e in 1989.
I know the game history and evolution.
I am a committed srun player who's deeply invested in the game.
I've been in the 5e errata team since it's inception.

6e and the new edge mechanic are the death of any realistic gameplay, it's all gamism now.

I know what i'm talking about, I just can't talk about everything I know, so i'm sticking to the stuff that's out there already.
Asking me to be quiet about my justified dissatisfaction with 6e would be like me asking you to be quiet for being positive towards the system.
I haven't asked you to do that, have I?

[TheWizurd]

The only thing I am really worried about is the role of armor.
Would the combats have turned out very differently if all PCs had been naked?

Yes the characters with lower AR felt the impact. The mage was obliterated, everyone wanted to shoot him because they would get an edge. He was caught in the open with no cover and crappy armor.

[Moonshine Fox]

The only thing I am really worried about is the role of armor.
Would the combats have turned out very differently if all PCs had been naked?

Yes the characters with lower AR felt the impact. The mage was obliterated, everyone wanted to shoot him because they would get an edge. He was caught in the open with no cover and crappy armor.

Geek the mage baby!

[Shinobi Killfist]

The only thing I am really worried about is the role of armor.
Would the combats have turned out very differently if all PCs had been naked?

Yes the characters with lower AR felt the impact. The mage was obliterated, everyone wanted to shoot him because they would get an edge. He was caught in the open with no cover and crappy armor.

Everyone shooting the same guy doesn’t mean the armor helped or hindered significantly. It just meant PCs gamed the system to farm edge. As a GM I don’t do that. So I’m not sure it will have a impact in play much.

[Michael Chandra]

Should have used Full Defense.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Maybe you can’t full defense if your turn has not come up yet. But yeah that would have been kind of funny if it worked.

[TheWizurd]

The biggest Edge change is that you can reroll your enemy's dice! O_O

Yes...

"Realism" is not really a useful term for a game with technomancer elves, but I think there are genuine concerns at work. Most of these ideas float around in game design circles, but I'm making up my own labels for them.

Games can be "immersive" or "narrativist" (let's say). An immersive game is one in which the player and the character make decisions for essentially the same reasons. The character dives behind cover for protection from bullets; the player has them dive behind cover to get the bonus to armour. Essentially the same reason. A narrativist game is one in which the player makes decisions for completely different reasons from the character. The character loses his temper because the ork insulted his mother. The player has the character lose his temper to get a Fate point that she can use later.

Shadowrun has been immersive so far, but the new Edge system sounds like it might be narrativist. It might not be; hiding behind cover because you get Edge is not that different from doing it to get an armour bonus.

A separate distinction is that games can be "simulationist" or "gamist". In a simulationist game, bonuses and penalties all have sensible origins within the fiction. You get a bonus to armour because you are hiding behind a concrete wall, for example. In a gamist game, the bonuses and penalties come from the game mechanics, and might have no foundation in the fiction. You get a bonus to armour because you spent the Fate point you earned by having the character lose his temper.

Shadowrun has been broadly simulationist so far, but the new Edge system sounds rather gamist. "I successfully hacked this system because I hid behind a wall earlier." The implementation details really matter here, though, and I, at least, don't know those yet.

Then there is "realism", which means that the game mechanics model the way the fiction is supposed to work. (We had a great deal of trouble in Ars Magica trying to create realistic magic resistance, which in one sense is absurd, but in another makes perfect sense — the mechanics should reflect the way the fiction describes it.) The concerns about the Knowledge skills and Armor are about realism in this sense; the concern that the mechanics won't reflect the fiction.

If Sixth World makes Shadowrun narrativist and gamist, I think it will alienate a lot of existing players, but I don't think it is at all clear that it does. If nothing else, the Edge mechanic does not sound as though it dominates everything, and the attributes and skills are still immersive-simulationist.

This is an excellent post and does a good job of highlighting the changes in 6e's edge mechanic.
The new edge mechanic IS a highly gamey, narrative-driven core of the new system.

Whereas in 5e and earlier the game world reacted somewhat realistically to your actions via thresholds and modifiers directly related to the situation, now we have an edge mechanic that abstracts that so completely that your actions become divorced from outcomes.

You can shift the affect of wearing armor (edge gained) to jumping higher or driving better?

Sorry but that's the definition of idiocy in my book.

It's the death of realism and the triumph of the rule of cool.

Shadowrun is now Men in Black, 100%.

If you like that, awesome, you're gonna have a great time.

Well you should get edge for superior position or driving better. It's the equivalent of extra dice. Just giving the players more choice and a little more excitement. Armor does not seem to be as effective in this edition. That is more realistic. You get edge for superior positioning, your opponent, finds cover and gets edge for that. I would not give edge for jumping up in the air personally. My job as GM.

At no point in the one game I ran, did the players save up edge from an unrealistic reward and spend it later. They always used it pretty much used it immediately. If you are saving up and sitting on  your edge in 6e, you don't get the mechanic.

We obviously have two different definitions of what fun is in a game. Everything evolves or it dies.

[FastJack]

I know what i'm talking about

This is the questionable language I'm talking about. These few words tell us that you believe that we'll all agree with you once we seen what you've seen. That, because you've seen it, you're a better expert on the system and how it will be accepted by other players like yourself.

This is why I bring up Rule #7 and constructive criticism.

I'm not asking to stop saying your opinion, just stop using language that makes it sound like your opinion matters more than others. In most of the members that disagree with you, they haven't claimed that they know better, just that they are waiting to see what the rules actually are (and that what they've seen so far, they like).

[TheWizurd]

The only thing I am really worried about is the role of armor.
Would the combats have turned out very differently if all PCs had been naked?

Yes the characters with lower AR felt the impact. The mage was obliterated, everyone wanted to shoot him because they would get an edge. He was caught in the open with no cover and crappy armor.

Everyone shooting the same guy doesn’t mean the armor helped or hindered significantly. It just meant PCs gamed the system to farm edge. As a GM I don’t do that. So I’m not sure it will have a impact in play much.

We didn't know the rules very well during the first round, so the mage getting ganked in the first round was a result of politics, a couple players had grudge with the player. After the first player, the street sam, obliterated him, it was open season. The face finished him off next initiative. The face convinced the street sam that since they had the same contacts, they were friends and should team up to kill the mage. The face was the mage's brother in real life and they had a fight that day. I had to put a stop to that quick and let the mage survive.

After the first round every player used a minor to find cover. The mage will go down in infamy for providing that lesson.

In the basic set at least mages don't seem as powerful as they once were. Having a lower DV and body really took it's toll. Mage made himself pass out from drain to fireball the sam and face.

[adzling]

I know what i'm talking about

This is the questionable language I'm talking about. These few words tell us that you believe that we'll all agree with you once we seen what you've seen. That, because you've seen it, you're a better expert on the system and how it will be accepted by other players like yourself.

This is why I bring up Rule #7 and constructive criticism.

I'm not asking to stop saying your opinion, just stop using language that makes it sound like your opinion matters more than others. In most of the members that disagree with you, they haven't claimed that they know better, just that they are waiting to see what the rules actually are (and that what they've seen so far, they like).

I have said repeatedly people should make up their own mind.

That statement was in regard to my experience with the system of shadowrun, I know what I’m talking about when it comes to how shadowrun works. I’ve been intimately involved for years in the errata process for 5e and heavily invested in the game.

But I’ve made my case with as much detail i can use and highlighted why I’m disappointed with 6e.

I am gonna step away now and let the discussion continue without me.

Gluck!