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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #60 on: <06-27-19/1809:07> »
Wait what am I misunderstanding you? Just driving with the rig out of combat or chases etc gets you edge? that actually sounds terrible. I used all my momentum I hop in my car and do doughnuts in the parking lot for a couple turns. Woo hoo my edge is back.

I'm not sure what the QSR has to say on the topic of generating edge  in non-combat situations (wasn't fortunate enough to get one of the copies from Origins, and can't go further into that on the CRB as iirc SCN failed to mention or demonstrate the dynamic), but Emu's dossier does fail to specify there's a "use or lose" element to the edge gain.

RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #61 on: <06-27-19/1813:22> »
Wait what am I misunderstanding you? Just driving with the rig out of combat or chases etc gets you edge? that actually sounds terrible. I used all my momentum I hop in my car and do doughnuts in the parking lot for a couple turns. Woo hoo my edge is back.

I'm not sure what the QSR has to say on the topic of generating edge  in non-combat situations (wasn't fortunate enough to get one of the copies from Origins, and can't go further into that on the CRB as iirc SCN failed to mention or demonstrate the dynamic), but Emu's dossier does fail to specify there's a "use or lose" element to the edge gain.

I hope it’s like temporary hit points in d&d and goes away the idea of refilling it to full just because you are in a car seems silly.

Ixal

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« Reply #62 on: <06-27-19/1816:01> »

I hope it’s like temporary hit points in d&d and goes away the idea of refilling it to full just because you are in a car seems silly.

Sadly, it would fit right into the stuff we know about SR6 and its trend to divorce rules from reality and "make it cool".

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #63 on: <06-27-19/1824:46> »
re-rolling one die is huge?
adjusting a 4 to a 5 is huge?

Rerolling multiple dice is huge, as is rerolling the dice of the punk trying to shoot out your tires. Plus it helps build up for buying auto-hits on rolls or adding your Edge to a roll.

Wait what am I misunderstanding you? Just driving with the rig out of combat or chases etc gets you edge? that actually sounds terrible. I used all my momentum I hop in my car and do doughnuts in the parking lot for a couple turns. Woo hoo my edge is back.

Not quite. From what I've read of the QSR via my friends pictures (come on Friday, hurry up!) technically yes, but at the start (and I think end) of combat and each new 'scene' you're pool of available Edge is set to your Edge rating. You could do a thing where you spin the tires in place to build up to 7 edge right before cutting loose and blasting though the barricade of Pawns waiting for you at the top of the loading ramp though 8)

It's honestly why I'm not quite as worried about the Edge system as I was when I first read about it. A number of the effects arn't as raw potent as older editions, but it refreshes pretty often on it's own so you'll be using your edge more, rather then hording it for that 'special moment'. You can only do one edge effect per action, but it seems you can do it multiple times (heal two boxes, reroll 4 dice, ect.), and some of the effects seem to do more then rumor first suggested (such as reroll enemy dice).

Ok, but everyone can put ranks into firearms and grab a gun, smartlink, and some armor. That doen’t invalidate the street sam.

So then you agree with me that the Rigger has been poorly treated since all the way back in 1st? Good to know.

No, you know what?  I'll bite and play off your deflection.

Yes, in 6e more than ever Street Sams have been crapped on too.  Their claim to fame used to be Initiative.  Then Adepts.  Then the claim to fame was reduced to being the only archetype that could reliably be compitant with any firearm because they had very little use for Karma other than weapon skills.  Now?  One skill fits all.  Firearms puts the Street Sam to bed without its supper.

That still doesn't do one damn thing about Riggers being the waste binned second class citizens of the the Shadowrun World.  Thanks for playing.

Nice to know you like to twist words. You don't get to claim one type of character is useless when literally almost every character in the game is the same way. Only the Awakened/Emerged have truly unique abilities that no other can mimic (not counting alchemy, which I REALLY hope they fixed). Shadowrun isn't a "Classless" system, it's a skill based system. 1st and 2nd edition firearms was one skill as well, and in 4th and 5th you had the group skill that got you all but the big guns. 3rd is the only one that had them all completely separate.

As for the Street Samurai, initiative has never been a core part of their credo. A street samurai is defined by three core things. 1) Combat skills, both melee and ranged. 2) Cyberware, this is where Wired Reflexes often come in but the true most common ware was cyber-razors. Sam's evolved from razor guys by adding the third quality, 3) A code of honor, like the ancient warrior of their namesake. This is why even back in first edition, and every edition since, mercenaries are a different archetype then sam's, despite being virtually identical mechanically.

It's been nearly 30 years since Ghost Who Walks Inside really showed us what a street samurai is, and longer then that since they've been around. The world dosn't have much honor left in it for them.
« Last Edit: <06-27-19/1829:33> by Moonshine Fox »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #64 on: <06-27-19/1832:06> »
Thing is just look at your heal example and how silly it would be to gain edge like that. Shot of hell, hop in your car and it’s a regen couch. Do doughnuts and keep spending edge once it hits 4 to heal physical damage. 30 seconds after taking a sniper round to the chest you are completely unharmed. Any other cyber that grants edge could have a similar issue. Let’s say Smart gun link gives a edge while aiming. Keep targeting inanimate objects out of a fight and regenerate.

Hobbes

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« Reply #65 on: <06-27-19/1832:21> »
Wait what am I misunderstanding you? Just driving with the rig out of combat or chases etc gets you edge? that actually sounds terrible. I used all my momentum I hop in my car and do doughnuts in the parking lot for a couple turns. Woo hoo my edge is back.

I'm not sure what the QSR has to say on the topic of generating edge  in non-combat situations (wasn't fortunate enough to get one of the copies from Origins, and can't go further into that on the CRB as iirc SCN failed to mention or demonstrate the dynamic), but Emu's dossier does fail to specify there's a "use or lose" element to the edge gain.

I hope it’s like temporary hit points in d&d and goes away the idea of refilling it to full just because you are in a car seems silly.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the CRB leaves it to the GM discretion if a situation is meaningful enough to generate edge. 

As I pointed out in another thread, possibly on another forum, take a 1 DV rat, put it in a cage, strap it you over your 5 point Armor.  Generate a point of Edge every 3 Seconds.  Or take a bag of newborn kittens and shoot one with your Sniper Rifle whenever you need to re-generate edge.  Whatever.  I presume the CRB leaves these to the GM to adjudicate these situations.  YMMV as to weather that is good or bad.

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #66 on: <06-27-19/1836:04> »
Thing is just look at your heal example and how silly it would be to gain edge like that. Shot of hell, hop in your car and it’s a regen couch. Do doughnuts and keep spending edge once it hits 4 to heal physical damage. 30 seconds after taking a sniper round to the chest you are completely unharmed. Any other cyber that grants edge could have a similar issue. Let’s say Smart gun link gives a edge while aiming. Keep targeting inanimate objects out of a fight and regenerate.

True, but that's one of those things were rules are being abused, which happens in literally every version of every game ever. That's why the GM puts his foot down and says no to the wanna-be rules lawyer. That's his job as much as making sure everyone is having fun.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #67 on: <06-27-19/1838:23> »
Wait what am I misunderstanding you? Just driving with the rig out of combat or chases etc gets you edge? that actually sounds terrible. I used all my momentum I hop in my car and do doughnuts in the parking lot for a couple turns. Woo hoo my edge is back.

I'm not sure what the QSR has to say on the topic of generating edge  in non-combat situations (wasn't fortunate enough to get one of the copies from Origins, and can't go further into that on the CRB as iirc SCN failed to mention or demonstrate the dynamic), but Emu's dossier does fail to specify there's a "use or lose" element to the edge gain.

I hope it’s like temporary hit points in d&d and goes away the idea of refilling it to full just because you are in a car seems silly.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the CRB leaves it to the GM discretion if a situation is meaningful enough to generate edge. 

As I pointed out in another thread, possibly on another forum, take a 1 DV rat, put it in a cage, strap it you over your 5 point Armor.  Generate a point of Edge every 3 Seconds.  Or take a bag of newborn kittens and shoot one with your Sniper Rifle whenever you need to re-generate edge.  Whatever.  I presume the CRB leaves these to the GM to adjudicate these situations.  YMMV as to weather that is good or bad.

Yeah d&d has a few rules like that. While the extremes can be down to the dm saying don’t be a dick. The extremes point how it can be abused in a non extreme way though. There are plenty of ways to game the system to get some edge legitimately without much risk and then use it to heal.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #68 on: <06-27-19/1839:39> »
No, but you'll ace many tests without needing to spend that 1 point
Would I now? I'd feel a lot more confident about that if rigging offered a more tangible, concrete benefit like, I don't know, reducing the number of hits I needed to succeed in the first place. Is that just too much to ask?

As for the Street Samurai, initiative has never been a core part of their credo. A street samurai is defined by three core things......Sam's evolved from razor guys by adding the third quality, 3) A code of honor, like the ancient warrior of their namesake. This is why even back in first edition, and every edition since, mercenaries are a different archetype then sam's, despite being virtually identical mechanically.
Of the many wrong things you have said, this one is the most wrong. Molly Millions, the OG streetsam, didn't have a code of honor, and IIRC neither did Hatchetman. The difference between a merc and a streetsam samurai is that the former works in a military or paramilitary context, while the latter is the odd job Jack of violence. Codes of honor have nothing to do with it; some mercenaries do have them, and some street samurai don't have them.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #69 on: <06-27-19/1844:44> »
Yeah d&d has a few rules like that. While the extremes can be down to the dm saying don’t be a dick. The extremes point how it can be abused in a non extreme way though. There are plenty of ways to game the system to get some edge legitimately without much risk and then use it to heal.

......aaaaand now we've reached conjunction with the other threads where there's complaints about why doesn't armor help on soak rolls. :D
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #70 on: <06-27-19/1851:45> »
Yeah d&d has a few rules like that. While the extremes can be down to the dm saying don’t be a dick. The extremes point how it can be abused in a non extreme way though. There are plenty of ways to game the system to get some edge legitimately without much risk and then use it to heal.

......aaaaand now we've reached conjunction with the other threads where there's complaints about why doesn't armor help on soak rolls. :D

I don’t see how. Though I may be misunderstanding you. Unless you are suggesting attacking weak enemies like picking fights with homeless drifters to gain edge because your defense rating is 4 higher than their shiv. Most attacks seem in line with normal bod+armor so that will be a wash for most characters.

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #71 on: <06-27-19/1922:34> »
No, but you'll ace many tests without needing to spend that 1 point
Would I now? I'd feel a lot more confident about that if rigging offered a more tangible, concrete benefit like, I don't know, reducing the number of hits I needed to succeed in the first place. Is that just too much to ask?

As for the Street Samurai, initiative has never been a core part of their credo. A street samurai is defined by three core things......Sam's evolved from razor guys by adding the third quality, 3) A code of honor, like the ancient warrior of their namesake. This is why even back in first edition, and every edition since, mercenaries are a different archetype then sam's, despite being virtually identical mechanically.
Of the many wrong things you have said, this one is the most wrong. Molly Millions, the OG streetsam, didn't have a code of honor, and IIRC neither did Hatchetman. The difference between a merc and a streetsam samurai is that the former works in a military or paramilitary context, while the latter is the odd job Jack of violence. Codes of honor have nothing to do with it; some mercenaries do have them, and some street samurai don't have them.

sigh

Street Samurai descriptions
Shadowrun Wiki (https://shadowrun.fandom.com/wiki/Street_Samurai)
A street samurai (also street sam, sammie, or razor boy/girl) is an archetypal shadowrunner who specializes in physical combat. They are often heavily augmented with cyberware and/or bioware to enhance their combat prowess and carry a variety of weapons to deal with any threat their groups encounter. Because of their reliance on some form of the -ware, they are distinguished from the rarer magic wielding close combat runners, who are known as (physical) adepts.
Street samurai often come from military, paramilitary, or corporate security backgrounds, but a street gang's culture of violence breeds street samurai of its own. Any situation that involves violence or overcoming physical defenses, such as assassination or sabotage, greatly benefits from a street samurai's presence, though they are not known for subtlety.
Street samurai are rarely social creatures. Their role as muscle leaves little room for social development. Their heavy augmentation causes others to experience an uncanny valley effect when interacting with them. They often adopt codes of honor, from simply not killing bystanders to more complex codes like bushido, as a way of holding on to the humanity that they are gradually exchanging for cyberware or bioware.

Shadowrun 3rd edition core rule book
The Street Samurai is more then an urban predator or partial cyborg, he is a freelance operative who follows a strict code of street honor. He is as learned in the ways of the traditional samurai warrior as he is in the practice of security procedures. The samurai tries to stay one step ahead of the dishonorable scum in the sprawl by upgrading his body with cyberware, always walking the line of insanity as he loses more and more flesh to the surgeon's knife.
He sells his skills, training, and cyberware for profit, but he is not an amoral killer and will refuse jobs that he considers dishonorable. His experience and leadership qualities often place him in charge of shadowrunner groups and operations, as he is perceptive in detailing mission plans and objectives. His cyberware enhancements give him an edge on the competition; those who underestimate him as a lowly street punk soon regret such a lethal mistake.

Shadowrun 4th edition core rule book
Part man, part machine, all dangerous— sometimes it’s hard to tell where the Street Samurai’s meat body ends and her cybered enhancements begin. Tough, strong, frighteningly fast, and trained in the arts of combat and tactics, she’s a hyper-efficient killing machine who can handle just about any situation she gets into. Whether former military, former corp, or former something-she-won’t-discuss, these days she’s a freelance street operative who prides herself on her strict sense of honor. She is as learned in the ways of the samurai warrior as she is in the practice of security procedures, and she prides herself on always remaining one step ahead of the dishonorable street scum who seek vainly to best her.

Shadowrun 5th edition core rule book
He’s where he began: out on the streets and alleys. Growing up looking for an edge, he found a job, and then he found another. And he made every nuyen stretch. Then, piece by piece, he put in new implants until he reached his goal: street samurai. Not just any razor guy, but  something more. Not some wise guy, or augmented thug or merc. He earned his honor by his work and learned from generations of noble warriors of old, giving him a soul, the spirit of bushido. Now he runs shadows with his team.


Hatchetman's code of honor isn't laid out anywhere that I know of and I don't think his player is still around, but he was a samurai of old training so it's safe to assume he had one.

Molly Millions is not a street samurai as street samurai are a Shadowrun creation, and she is a creation of our genre father, William Gibson. Specifically she was created for his Sprawl trilogy of books that I highly recommend people go and read.
« Last Edit: <06-27-19/1929:11> by Moonshine Fox »

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #72 on: <06-27-19/1941:01> »
sigh

I noticed you conveniently left out 1st and 2nd edition - probably because it didn't fit your narrative.

Just in case your gonna pull the "but I don't have the books" defense, I'll add them here.

Shadowrun 1st Edition Core Rulebook:
The street samurai can be male or female, but sex has nothing to do with how tough a street samurai is.  Born to the metroplex, he's as tough as its alloy steel bones and as dangerous as ground glass.  His augmentations are more than just tools to him; they are his styl, his badge of commitment to the hi-tech life of the city.  He's chromed and proud of it.  Bodyguard or strongman, hired muscle or street soldier, he's a lion of the plex, a hunter in the shadows.

Shodwrun 2nd Edition Core Rulebook:
The street samurai can be male or female, but sex has nothing to do with how tough a street samurai is.  Born to the metroplex, he's as tough as its alloy steel bones and as dangerous as ground glass.  His augmentations are more than just tools to him; they are his styl, his badge of commitment to the hi-tech life of the city.  He's chromed and proud of it.  Bodyguard or strongman, hired muscle or street soldier, he's a lion of the plex, a hunter in the shadows.

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FastJack

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« Reply #73 on: <06-27-19/1945:04> »
sigh

I noticed you conveniently left out 1st and 2nd edition - probably because it didn't fit your narrative.

Just in case your gonna pull the "but I don't have the books" defense, I'll add them here.

Shadowrun 1st Edition Core Rulebook:
The street samurai can be male or female, but sex has nothing to do with how tough a street samurai is.  Born to the metroplex, he's as tough as its alloy steel bones and as dangerous as ground glass.  His augmentations are more than just tools to him; they are his styl, his badge of commitment to the hi-tech life of the city.  He's chromed and proud of it.  Bodyguard or strongman, hired muscle or street soldier, he's a lion of the plex, a hunter in the shadows.

Shodwrun 2nd Edition Core Rulebook:
The street samurai can be male or female, but sex has nothing to do with how tough a street samurai is.  Born to the metroplex, he's as tough as its alloy steel bones and as dangerous as ground glass.  His augmentations are more than just tools to him; they are his styl, his badge of commitment to the hi-tech life of the city.  He's chromed and proud of it.  Bodyguard or strongman, hired muscle or street soldier, he's a lion of the plex, a hunter in the shadows.

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Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #74 on: <06-27-19/1958:57> »
Street Samurai descriptions
Those might as well be the in-universe popular culture perceptions of streetsams, because they have just as much relevance to the actual streetsams that actual players run. I didn't pick up a code of honor when I played a streetsam, and neither did the streetsam I'm running alongside now. (inb4 No True Scotsman Fallacy) Furthermore, I can point to contradictory evidence from the sourcebooks; in addition to the 1e and 2e descriptions of streetsams, there's a bit in Run Faster under the description of the Samurai Code that says, and I quote the exact words, "most street samurai pay lip service to some aspects of the code". Even the most generous interpretation of that sentence means that the minority of streetsams have a code of honor, while the majority of them say they do but don't fully commit to it.

Quote
Molly Millions is not a street samurai as street samurai are a Shadowrun creation, and she is a creation of our genre father, William Gibson. Specifically she was created for his Sprawl trilogy of books that I highly recommend people go and read.
Maybe you should try following your own advice, that way you'd know just how deliciously wrong you are. It's been a decade since I read Neuromancer for my English high school class, but I still remember that Molly Million was referred to as both a "razorgirl" and a "street samurai".
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