[Banshee]

I do love that she has the battle cry of riggers everywhere, “Stop shooting my drones!” Overall seems decent enough. Good skills, relevant stats, and some secondary roll skills. I did notice her knowledge skills didn’t have a rating, so that’s interesting.

I haven’t unpacked my box yet, so I can’t compare her to the others, but overall seems like a solid intro character for quick start. Looking forward to the informational blog posts!
[/quote]

yeah, knowledge skills are rankless now ... you just pick things you know stuff about that then allow the GM to say "you know ..." or give a bonus to action skills when applicable "get a bonus on your perception check to find the hidden camera because you have Knowledge Security Systems", so no need for ranks

[Moonshine Fox]

I do love that she has the battle cry of riggers everywhere, “Stop shooting my drones!” Overall seems decent enough. Good skills, relevant stats, and some secondary roll skills. I did notice her knowledge skills didn’t have a rating, so that’s interesting.

I haven’t unpacked my box yet, so I can’t compare her to the others, but overall seems like a solid intro character for quick start. Looking forward to the informational blog posts!

yeah, knowledge skills are rankless now ... you just pick things you know stuff about that then allow the GM to say "you know ..." or give a bonus to action skills when applicable "get a bonus on your perception check to find the hidden camera because you have Knowledge Security Systems", so no need for ranks
[/quote]

 Sweet! My group has always encouraged knowledge skills,  especially interest grade ones, because they really help round out a character, and not having to worry about points in them helps.

[Michael Chandra]

Knowledge skills were too much a 'chargen or bust' costwise for me so I like the sound of flat ones.

[Marcus]

So are languages binary also?

[adzling]

Just another useful detail that did not contribute to complexity getting thrown out with the bath water.

Languages in prior editions were a core aspect of facing with many bits of ware and qualities interacting with them.

Now that’s all gone for no benefit.

Yaay!

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

So are languages binary also?

Not so much.  At the least, there's a difference between her English language proficiency rating of N and the others.

[incrdbil]

yeah, knowledge skills are rankless now ... you just pick things you know stuff about that then allow the GM to say "you know ..." or give a bonus to action skills when applicable "get a bonus on your perception check to find the hidden camera because you have Knowledge Security Systems", so no need for ranks

So how the heck do you differentiate between someone who knows a smattering on a subect, and someone who is a world leading expert?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

yeah, knowledge skills are rankless now ... you just pick things you know stuff about that then allow the GM to say "you know ..." or give a bonus to action skills when applicable "get a bonus on your perception check to find the hidden camera because you have Knowledge Security Systems", so no need for ranks

So how the heck do you differentiate between someone who knows a smattering on a subect, and someone who is a world leading expert?

Whoever's character has the more impressive CV.

Apologies for the snark, I couldn't resist making the joke
In 6e having a knowledge skill presumes a certain level of expertise.  The sorts of things you know only a little bit about don't rise to the level of a knowledge skill.  Surely you don't think Emu lacks even so much as a smattering of knowledge in any topics except Seattle Geography and Smugglers' Routes? Given her background story, if she were a 5e character she "should" have knowledge skills in Australia, Aboriginal Rights, Mafia, Military, and many others. But for 6e those are presumably the smattering level expertise as opposed to her great knowledge of Seattle's layout and its popular smuggling routes. 

I doubt most people took a "proper" number of knowledge skills, even at low ranks, to adequately reflect the breadth of characters' experiences and interests.  Take me for example: I'm not saying I'm the only one who plays "proper" and takes a whole lot of knowledge skills... I have a SRM character who did a CMP in Nashville.  That character is never going back to Nashville.  I'd rather spend 1 karma on almost anything other than Area Knowledge: Nashville.  But since my character WAS there and experienced a shadowrun there, by not spending that 1 karma I'm in effect artificially forcing the character to forget everything she learned about Nashville. I kind of like dispensing with that.  Either you know enough about a subject for it to be relevant to the situation at hand or you don't.  Binary works for me in this context.

[Moonshine Fox]

yeah, knowledge skills are rankless now ... you just pick things you know stuff about that then allow the GM to say "you know ..." or give a bonus to action skills when applicable "get a bonus on your perception check to find the hidden camera because you have Knowledge Security Systems", so no need for ranks

So how the heck do you differentiate between someone who knows a smattering on a subect, and someone who is a world leading expert?

Whoever's character has the more impressive CV.

Apologies for the snark, I couldn't resist making the joke
In 6e having a knowledge skill presumes a certain level of expertise.  The sorts of things you know only a little bit about don't rise to the level of a knowledge skill.  Surely you don't think Emu lacks even so much as a smattering of knowledge in any topics except Seattle Geography and Smugglers' Routes? Given her background story, if she were a 5e character she "should" have knowledge skills in Australia, Aboriginal Rights, Mafia, Military, and many others. But for 6e those are presumably the smattering level expertise as opposed to her great knowledge of Seattle's layout and its popular smuggling routes. 

I doubt most people took a "proper" number of knowledge skills, even at low ranks, to adequately reflect the breadth of characters' experiences and interests.  Take me for example: I'm not saying I'm the only one who plays "proper" and takes a whole lot of knowledge skills... I have a SRM character who did a CMP in Nashville.  That character is never going back to Nashville.  I'd rather spend 1 karma on almost anything other than Area Knowledge: Nashville.  But since my character WAS there and experienced a shadowrun there, by not spending that 1 karma I'm in effect artificially forcing the character to forget everything she learned about Nashville. I kind of like dispensing with that.  Either you know enough about a subject for it to be relevant to the situation at hand or you don't.  Binary works for me in this context.

I can't count the number of knowledge skills I only had 1 or 2 ranks in because I had too many! The lower amount of starting knowledge points in 5th meant I always had to choose between higher level but only game relevant skills, or lower levels with interest skills.

[incrdbil]

I kind of like dispensing with that.  Either you know enough about a subject for it to be relevant to the situation at hand or you don't.  Binary works for me in this context.

so you go from untalented "I researched it on the matrix" amateur, to "no one knows more than me" with one flat purchase.   No way to differentiate between the world leading expert in a knowledge skill covered area and someone who just got a basic degre?

[David Chart]

I kind of like dispensing with that.  Either you know enough about a subject for it to be relevant to the situation at hand or you don't.  Binary works for me in this context.

so you go from untalented "I researched it on the matrix" amateur, to "no one knows more than me" with one flat purchase.   No way to differentiate between the world leading expert in a knowledge skill covered area and someone who just got a basic degre?

There's also no way to differentiate between a technically skilled artist, an emotionally authentic artist, and a highly original artist. These are very different, but the distinction doesn't really matter to Shadowrun. I can easily see that a binary distinction between people who do know about the subject, and those who don't, could be enough for this game. If it makes it easier for players to justify picking up new knowledges to reflect their characters' life experience, then it could be a good thing.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I kind of like dispensing with that.  Either you know enough about a subject for it to be relevant to the situation at hand or you don't.  Binary works for me in this context.

so you go from untalented "I researched it on the matrix" amateur, to "no one knows more than me" with one flat purchase.   No way to differentiate between the world leading expert in a knowledge skill covered area and someone who just got a basic degre?

Basically, yes, if that's the way you're going to insist on viewing it. It's not like it matters in a mechanical sense how much a PhD knows versus a Bachelor does on a topic. What matters is whether the character knows something that's relevant to something related to the current shadowrun, not how much the character knows overall on the topic.

And for that matter, I fail to see how this is a problem.  Which runner knows more about Astrophysics or Zulu Culture is an answer that will practically never be relevant in game play.  But if two players whose characters have the same knowledge skill have to know who's character was a bigger help to the team learning plot clues based on that shared knowledge skill, then they can roleplay it out or even just roll an opposed test without the game engine needing to preserve ranks in knowledge skills.  I already explained why I think there's benefit in getting rid of them.

There's also no way to differentiate between a technically skilled artist, an emotionally authentic artist, and a highly original artist. These are very different, but the distinction doesn't really matter to Shadowrun. I can easily see that a binary distinction between people who do know about the subject, and those who don't, could be enough for this game. If it makes it easier for players to justify picking up new knowledges to reflect their characters' life experience, then it could be a good thing.

Have a +1.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

And for that matter, I fail to see how this is a problem.

I do.

Mr. Johnson has hired the team to extract Bob, the worlds leading expert anaerobic mold spores from Megacorp Zeta to supply the boss with the answer to a formula.

Once the meeting is over, Skin Rash the murder hobo leans in to his team.  "Uh, guys...  No need to do the job.  I took anaerobic mold spores as an elective at Hard Knocks U.  We got this."

Have you EVER been in a position in 5e (or any other edition) where one of the PCs had a knowledge skill that replicates the knowledge level of a world class scientist? or to do whatever macguffin-y task "only" the plot-designated NPC is supposed to be able to do?  And so that we're talking apples to apples here, for 5e that'd be 8+ skill ranks in a knowledge skill ("You are a highly sought-after talent. Corporations seek you out (or extract you from other corporations), pg 131 SR5). Not just a knowledge skill 8+, but the exact correct knowledge skill Mr Johnson needs addressed?

And if so, was it more than once? Because if you said yes to the above, you're either lying or it's a hell of an outlier.

Your problem is you are defining it withing the group only, rather than take it out of that bubble.

Yeah, you have a point that rules for PCs may not translate well to NPCs. 

So what.  Seriously.

Players don't play NPCs.  They play Shadowrunners.  They don't play Doc Wagon medics, they don't play Lone Star beat cops, they don't play GOD agents.  NPCs just sometimes don't conform to rules that govern PCs. So if the plot dictates that only the scientist Mr Johnson wants can solve the riddle, then only the scientist Mr Johnson wants can solve the riddle.  OTOH if the GM wants to allow a runner with appropriate knowledge skills solve it in place of the scientist, then the runner can make a test.  This stuff shouldn't be hard.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Hey admins!

Can we pull the posts about knowledge skills out of the rigger dossier discussion, so that can stay about riggers?

If one of y'all would be so kind as to peel out this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this over into this thread, we'd clean up that other one!

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Carrying this over from the Rigger Dossier thread, in case things get moved about - inspite of the Rigger Dossier being the reason more people found out about how Knowledge Skills work in 6e.

Have you EVER been in a position in 5e (or any other edition) where one of the PCs had a knowledge skill that replicates the knowledge level of a world class scientist?

6e will.

Because either you don't have the Knowledge Skill, or you replicate the knowledge of a world class scientist.  Just because there is no other level available.  (At least that you are capable of talking about.)

Anything else, and you are trying to compare oranges to crayfish.

To use 5e, if a rank 1 in a Knowledge Skill indicated Masters Degree - I could say whole heartedily that I routinely met that criteria.  Why rank 1?  Because it is the binary opposite of rank 0, the same as having the Knowledge Skill in 6e.

NPCs just sometimes don't conform to rules that govern PCs.

And that is the single most myopic failure of all role playing game systems.  If you believe otherwise, you haven't been paying attention for the last 25 years.

You have prospective players (some on these forums even) complaining that armor not preventing damage and impossible shots - at worst - impose a -2 Edge penalty (give 2 Edge to the target) defy all believeability and you somehow think that PCs living in a completely different environment from the rest of the game world is going to go over well?

Seriously?

What players want, more than just about anything else (assuming the system in question matches the story in their minds) is a game system that is consistent across all aspects of the game world.

If a player decides to make an Doctor of Archeology that Decks to make ends meet, and takes 3 different Archeology Knowledge Skills to represent his/her PhDs in those fields...  They do not want to find out in game that the Knowledge Skills only represent the freshman course and that PhDs are only really handed out by the GM when the mood suits them.

That isn't to say that PhDs have to be handed out to anyone who takes a Knowledge Skill.  It might suffice to have a Positive Quality titled Masters of [Knowledge Skill] that represents that.  It can be so insanely expensive that no character would, even if they could, buy it a chargen.  It could even have "GM Approval Only" as a requirement.  All of that would likely suffice, because at least the player has a path towards what they want for their character.


Or, put another way, players really, really, really, want PC physics to match the rest of the game world physics.

When they don't, dissonense occurs.