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[SR6] A Polite Thread About Armor

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Typhus

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« on: <07-20-19/1205:29> »
So, obviously, Armor not being part of the damage soak mechanic has become a pretty controversial subject.  This is explicitly NOT another thread to start hating on that notion.  What I am interested in hearing about from knowledgeable parties is why that came to be the case.  I don't feel that I've heard a solid statement yet on the intent or theory there.  My hope is that if I can understand it better, I can either overlook it and move on or just get onboard with it.  Maybe some others could too.

What I really don't want to see in this thread is either just rage against the mechanic or hating on the reasons that get presented, or other saltiness.  Save it for Reddit. 

I know I was a little salty about cyberjacks elsewhere, but I'm trying to reformat my own take on things, and keep my posts more productive.  I'll do my best to stick to asking clarifying questions.  I may not end up agreeing, but at least I will see the point of how it is all intended to work. 

A special thanks to Fastjack for trying to set a civil tone for the forums here.  My goal is to follow that.  Please feel free to call me out if I get too saucy.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <07-20-19/1229:24> »
I don't know that there's any place for this discussion to go.

Not to say that it's got no merit in discussing.... I don't mean that at all.  It's that the people who have the information you seek aren't going to give it to you.  They can't, until NDAs are lifted. Best case scenario: as of Gen Con the CRB and 1st wave of errata are all available to the public. That's only a couple more weeks.  So I guess I should expound on that first sentence in this post to say "I don't know that there's any place for this discussion to go at this time."

EDIT: I wasn't part of the playtest or writing, so I suppose I can engage in hypotheticals and conjecture with the best of them... so here's something to offer other than "Ask again later"

I presume that armor not adding to soak is a 2nd order effect of generally lowering damage values. Because quite obviously, you can't be throwing body+armor rating against DVs of 3s and 5s. That'd be ridiculous.  As for why DVs had to be so low, again I can only guess and I'm not sure that'd be helpful at this point.  So: given that DVs are so much lower (for whatever reason) than in 5e, clearly armor has to work differently in some way.  If 5e armor ratings were hypothetically boiled down to compensate for lower base DVs, you'd end up with armor ratings ranging from like 1-3, with maybe some slightly bigger bonuses in the extreme stuff.  It'd resemble 5e more, sure.  But it's just 5e, twisted downards in rating.  And actually you'd have less granularity that way between armor types than the new DR mechanic anyway.
« Last Edit: <07-20-19/1243:57> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #2 on: <07-20-19/1322:04> »
So, obviously, Armor not being part of the damage soak mechanic has become a pretty controversial subject.  This is explicitly NOT another thread to start hating on that notion.  What I am interested in hearing about from knowledgeable parties is why that came to be the case.  I don't feel that I've heard a solid statement yet on the intent or theory there.  My hope is that if I can understand it better, I can either overlook it and move on or just get onboard with it.  Maybe some others could too.

What I really don't want to see in this thread is either just rage against the mechanic or hating on the reasons that get presented, or other saltiness.  Save it for Reddit. 

I know I was a little salty about cyberjacks elsewhere, but I'm trying to reformat my own take on things, and keep my posts more productive.  I'll do my best to stick to asking clarifying questions.  I may not end up agreeing, but at least I will see the point of how it is all intended to work. 

A special thanks to Fastjack for trying to set a civil tone for the forums here.  My goal is to follow that.  Please feel free to call me out if I get too saucy.

SSDR beat while I was typing (stupid spilled soda can), but the people with the full knowledge behind the curtain can't talk about it yet. We just gotta be patient to get all the salacious details.

My own best guess is that, armor values were getting out of hand. It wasn't too hard to work the armor system and make a runner who was near immune to small arms fire. Anything that can counter that threat, is probably going to make all the other players armor completely pointless anyhow, or have such high DV that it could potentially party wipe just to challenge one player. It also made it seem rather pointless to get some pieces of cyber as you could get better bonuses with just an armor mod or two. This solves those problems.

It does seem to create a few of it's own tis true, and it just seems weird on paper, but we'll have to see how it ends up feeling in game. This could also shift the view of armor from being just valuable for soak, and focusing on the various mods and extra protective layers you can add. I personally never walk around Seattle without some acid wash protection for the rain :D  Plus cyber like bone lacing and dermal plates gain back their power and value in a runners kit.

That or Ares pushed a new bullet onto the streets that make armor a joke, and armor tech just hasn't caught up yet.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #3 on: <07-20-19/1338:33> »
That or Ares pushed a new bullet onto the streets that make armor a joke, and armor tech just hasn't caught up yet.

That is really not a bad way to choose to look at it.  Who remembers the SOTA rules back in 2e? (or was it 3e)

Anyway, just as Cyberjacks weren't even invented yet in 2079 and any decker worth his salt has to have one in 2080, some new teflon-or-whatever can have been invented that effectively changed the dynamic between armor and firepower back in firepower's favor.  A couple of shadowruns later, every arms manufacturer has their own unlicensed knock off version, and now everyone's shooting through what was a year ago solid armor.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

dezmont

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« Reply #4 on: <07-20-19/1405:52> »
There is a perception that unbalanced soak values disrupt table balance and playability because anything capable of hurting the street samurai is going to one shot everything else.

In reality, this is kinda the point, but people takeaway the wrong lesson here.

The point isn't that you should be trying to hurt the street samurai, the street samurai didn't take all that soak 'by mistake' and you as a GM need to correct their erronious choice and ensure they take the damage they clearly want.

The point is most combatants firing normal guns at normal skill values seriously are unable to hurt samurai, and that is kinda the point. Samurai have numerous weaknesses (An inability to use 'social stealth,' the fact they are the only role who has no abilities really usable outside of their immediate location, few support options besides protect the principle and suppressing fire, with suppressing fire coming at the intense cost of the Samurai ending fights quickly) that make them arguably one of the more interesting archetypes: Sure the SAMURAI is immune to damage, but their friends aren't.

If you run SR almost like a dungeon crawl where everyone is constantly fighting alongside each other any time combat occurs, this is a problem. If you are running SR as a heist game (and to be clear, that is what at least 5e is), then the samurai's immunity and overwhelming combat ability makes sense as the logistics of what room people are in and the fact that corpsec may be really terrible at killing a street samurai but can be really good at slowing them down for backup to arrive works.

This is, however, a pretty non-standard and nuanced way to run a game, and its not intuitive. While I always advocate that the 'tension' of random PC death in random combats is bad tension  (Its akin to a show or story where the only driving tension is if the main characters may die to a stray bullet by some mooks. It isn't satisfying, dice can't foreshadow, build up to things, or play off dramatic tension, there is a reason the RPG industry trended hard away from high lethality) and that SR's default plot structure is really REALLY poorly suited to common PC death (As the default assumption is the group are mercenaries and there is no overarching goal that isn't intensely character driven, so the entire cast getting replaced over time is... weird) it is also true that... people sorta naturally lean towards the game aspect over the collective storytelling aspect, especially newer players.

Accessibility and easy to understand plots and conflicts are very in right now, very 2019, what with Game of Thrones and Stranger Things really pushing 'RPGs are a fun thing you can play with your friends and have fun with even if you aren't a super nerd' more at the forefront of people's minds. And this is a VERY good trend, it is GOOD that more people are aware RPGs are fun and not intimidating. But SR has a sort of culture of trying to intimidate people, the screech of 'SR isn't D&D' is common and while soak rolls themselves are not complex the ramifications of soak are, as well as the methods of getting soak. The number one mistake I see new and even veteran players making is failing to understand how absolutely critical their defensive totals are to combat, and paying for defenses inefficiently (ex: A pure adept player taking a few ranks in mystic armor because it sorta feels like a natural thing to do despite that trashing your PC because now you can't efficiently takedown enemies and will be exposed to more DV incoming overall every turn while having often ineffectual turns). So while 'soak rolls going away speeds up combat' feels kinda bunk, soak rolls going away speeds up system mastery a LOT.

I don't like the new soak rolls. At all. But it seems clear to me they want to make things easier on rookie GMs who struggle to really wrap their heads around the fun of a PC who is immune to damage, because its way easier to run a police shootout or a fight against gangers than it is to diagram an office building's social routines and layout, figure out how its technologial security layers in, and setting things up so the PCs feel like that despite the fact they are insanely awesome superhuman cyborg and magical badasses there is so much to do and so many ways things could go wrong that don't involve failed dicerolls or damage. I think they went too far in trying to make SR more accessible to this influx of people new to our hobby, but I think the goal is sorta self evident and is a good goal to have, and I do thing RPG players need to me making a way better effort to make the hobby inviting and lower barriers of entry.

Typhus

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« Reply #5 on: <07-20-19/1447:13> »
I guess I assumed that because I was answered in a general way about the cyberjack issue, and in a way that satisfied my curiosity enough, I felt the same was possible in when discussing this notion.  I'm not looking for an in depth commentary, just something that would tell me "it's actually accounted for over in another area" or "we assumed that everyone wears armor, therefore, the damage is lower overall, and the DR takes care of the degree of distinction" or something to that effect. 

It's the number one concern people give voice to so far, so if there's an offset to that concern, I hope it can be presented even very generally while under NDA restrictions (like the cyberjack already was).  It might help the perception.

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #6 on: <07-20-19/1752:14> »
or "we assumed that everyone wears armor, therefore, the damage is lower overall, and the DR takes care of the degree of distinction" or something to that effect. 

You hit the nail right on the head there I think. The characters aren't supposed to be idiots, so they'd at the least have some armored clothing on or vital plates sewing into a shirt. Vending machine armored jumpsuits have been a thing for a while, so it's a pretty safe bet most people have them, all jokes of swim trunk runs aside.

tenchi2a

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« Reply #7 on: <07-20-19/1914:26> »
or "we assumed that everyone wears armor, therefore, the damage is lower overall, and the DR takes care of the degree of distinction" or something to that effect. 

And therein lies the issue, its not that this couldn't work but that the current RAR that we know don't provide that "degree of distinction" to a degree to suspend disbelief.
When the best you can get from your armor is +1 edge no matter if its armored clothing or a full tactical suit how do you explain this to the players in a way that makes sense.
I personally feel that if there was a step progression to the DV(4+)= +1 edge or even DV(2+)= +1 edge per (2+) a lot of these issues would have been mitigated.


You hit the nail right on the head there I think. The characters aren't supposed to be idiots, so they'd at the least have some armored clothing on or vital plates sewing into a shirt. Vending machine armored jumpsuits have been a thing for a while, so it's a pretty safe bet most people have them, all jokes of swim trunk runs aside.

As above if armored clothing or a full tactical suit both add the same max +1 edge it comes down to "what is the max armor DV + Body I need to average +1 edge or deny the NPC +1 edge, nothing more.

Example using info from the rigger sheet

DV= Body(2) + Armor Jacket(4)= DV(6)

Rifle (name withheld for forum reasons)
AR= C:3,N:11,M:10,F:6,E:1

So with this armor the runner is going to give the NPC edge at Near and medium ranges (most common ranges) and get edge at extreme only(rarely happens)
With out the armor the runner is going to give the NPC edge at Near, medium, and far ranges and not get edge at any range.

This to me means that for a 2 body runner this armor is doing little to nothing useful, and the money could be spent on something else, or I would ignore this armor and go for something with more DV.
This also brings on the issues of runners with more body finding lighter armors to be more effective for them which is nuts that the player that can soak well already gets more effect from light armor then the runner that can't soak as well. So if a Troll tank can get or deny edge most of the time just wearing an armored jacket why would he waste money on anything bigger, and if a Elf mage can't avoid giving edge at any of the most common ranges why would he bother with armor?
The answer: they wouldn't.

« Last Edit: <07-20-19/2242:23> by tenchi2a »

Tecumseh

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« Reply #8 on: <07-21-19/0148:38> »
Some caveats: I haven't played 6E yet, nor am I privy to any insider information.

That said, as I've been listening and reading between the lines, I've feel like I've heard few things from the devs:

1) In 5E, armor had inflated so much that it devalued Body. If everyone is running around with 12 points of armor from an armor jacket, why bother with anything more than Body 3? Spending finite attribute points in Body generally wasn't a good investment, since the % change to your soak pool was so small. The optimal approach was the maximize Intuition and Reaction, not only because they were tied to useful skills (unlike Body) but also because they were superior to Body in terms of reducing damage and/or avoiding it altogether. So, the new system is to intended to rebalance the importance of Body.

2) The high armor values of 5E lead to high weapon DVs which often lead to dodge-or-die situations. Some devs like this and some devs don't, citing realism or game balance to support their preference. The new system is intended to make things more granular so that a single hit - or a single poor soak roll - isn't an automatic death sentence.

3) Similar to the above, a high base DV devalues the net hits that a skilled attacker can adds to the final DV. Take the FN HAR for example. If your base DV is 10P (in 5E), the difference between 1 net hit and 3 was modest from a % lift standpoint (since 13P is 18% higher than 11P), but if your base DV is 5P (as in 6E) then the lift is much more significant (8P is 33% higher than 6P). So the new system is intended to make your skill more important not just for determining whether you hit or not, but also how well you hit and how effective it is.

Again, much of this is based off asides and me reading between the lines, so don't take it as gospel. I'm not saying that I agree with it or that I would have done it the same way, but that's my current understanding behind the changes in 6E's approach to armor, Body, and weapon DVs.
« Last Edit: <07-21-19/0152:42> by Tecumseh »

dezmont

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« Reply #9 on: <07-21-19/0229:28> »
Some caveats: I haven't played 6E yet, nor am I privy to any insider information.

That said, as I've been listening and reading between the lines, I've feel like I've heard few things from the devs:

1) In 5E, armor had inflated so much that it devalued Body. If everyone is running around with 12 points of armor from an armor jacket, why bother with anything more than Body 3? Spending finite attribute points in Body generally wasn't a good investment, since the % change to your soak pool was so small. The optimal approach was the maximize Intuition and Reaction, not only because they were tied to useful skills (unlike Body) but also because they were superior to Body in terms of reducing damage and/or avoiding it altogether. So, the new system is to intended to rebalance the importance of Body.

2) The high armor values of 5E lead to high weapon DVs which often lead to dodge-or-die situations. Some devs like this and some devs don't, citing realism or game balance to support their preference. The new system is intended to make things more granular so that a single hit - or a single poor soak roll - isn't an automatic death sentence.

3) Similar to the above, a high base DV devalues the net hits that a skilled attacker can adds to the final DV. Take the FN HAR for example. If your base DV is 10P (in 5E), the difference between 1 net hit and 3 was modest from a % lift standpoint (since 13P is 18% higher than 11P), but if your base DV is 5P (as in 6E) then the lift is much more significant (8P is 33% higher than 6P). So the new system is intended to make your skill more important not just for determining whether you hit or not, but also how well you hit and how effective it is.

Again, much of this is based off asides and me reading between the lines, so don't take it as gospel. I'm not saying that I agree with it or that I would have done it the same way, but that's my current understanding behind the changes in 6E's approach to armor, Body, and weapon DVs.

This is not the ideal takeaway for the effects of 5e armor.

For example, high body is pretty meta among soak tanks due to the interplay of soak and edge. It doesn't make sense to pump body too hard if your not going soak tank, this is true, but body and strength are really strong on soak tanks in 5e. The stat definitely had its place.

5e was a significant DOWNGRADE of lethality from 4e, where it wasn't so much 'dodge or die' as 'Have 40 soak or die' because the final DVs of weapons in SR4 was higher than in 5e.

For example, a Machine pistol in SR4 had a BASE DV of 4, but a final DV of 13 (lets forget about ammo and assume this is a cruddy ganger with an MP). Your armored jacket negated 3 DV. If you didn't have pretty much every soak aug in SR4's core book or a troll's body, you couldn't survive that damage, so the smallest gun in the game that isn't a single shot gun, something any idiot could get for the same price and avail as a handgun, would kill almost every SR PC pretty much automatically. In SR5, you only break DVs of 13 on really big guns like shotguns and sniper rifles. So survivability in SR5 is much higher, especially because in SR4 the way defense was calculated made dodging weapons impossible. So even the weakest autofire weapon in the game would kill any PC besides a street samurai hit by it nearly 100% of the time. For reference, the Panther was 10 DV.

SR5 was probably the least soak minmaxing intensive edition of SR printed due to the fact base armor was really good. It is super incorrect to state that it was more lethal than previous editions where your soak 6 body 4 armor was going up against someone firing 3 hypervelocity submachinegun shots at you for 16 DV 3 times, all shots being made with a pool of 12 or more against a defense pool of... reaction alone. Unless you full defensed in which case you only got to add 1-4 to the roll.

Obviously, this environment where you auto-hit reduced the importance of skill dice even more than 5e. In fact, in SR5, skill dice are hugely important due to the relationship between DV and autofire now: Higher dice isn't an efficient way to get DV directly, but it indirectly increases your DV because semi-auto and single shot weapons tend to hit harder than the burst fire or autofire they lost would negate in defensive hits. In fact, in SR5, despite the increase to soak, most of your lost DV as an attacker doesn't come from soak, but from defense dice, even vs grunts who aren't optimizing for it but have the good core rules armor, which is why for most PCs automatic weapons were still the ideal: Yes that sniper hit WAY harder than the AR (rather than way less like in SR4, where machine pistols hit harder than a panther...) but if your missing 35% of your shots your way better off with the AR. This also really hurt 4e's balance, because the nominal cost of autofire (recoil, which in theory lowered hit rate) didn't matter because A: You got more dice from gear than you do now, and B: Even on a full defense test your rolling like 8 defense dice optimistically, and full defense was just a terrible deal vs ranged weapons as it guaranteed you would get shot an extra time.

In fact SR5 probably had the best balance of defense vs offense of any SR edition, because its totally possible to go into combat as a non-soak tank and eat a few shots and not die, but it is still rewarding to really push that soak up because really big scary guns still exist, and it is still possible to achieve the classic samurai trope of bullet immunity. What SR5 did was heavily squeeze the range of DVs down, increased base soak numbers, and removed the insane impact autofire had on DV, resulting in damage generally being very consistent and PCs fully capable of surviving attacks from even serious guns rather consistently, but making it possible to get unlucky on either side of the attack. In SR4, a light pistol failed to do any damage through an armored jacket worn with a helmet while a machine pistol without special ammo would consistently kill a body 5 reflexes 4 character through full body armor 80% of the time, and your survival rate vs an assault rifle with ExExplosive is 4% with FBA.

This actually had huge ramifications going from 4e to 5e, mainly the fact that armor was no longer virtually worthless made it so PCs who weren't soak-stacking could participate in combat without instantly being popped the second the standard PR1 Halloweener grunt took out their TMP with their 6 attack dice and got even slightly lucky on the attack, forget about Corpsec utterly annihilating you with an HK-277. You get shot in SR4, you best be a samurai, be getting hit with a 'toy gun' in single shot or semi-auto, or be a soak tank samurai limb build.
« Last Edit: <07-21-19/0304:55> by dezmont »

Banshee

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« Reply #10 on: <07-22-19/0818:23> »
Ok gang, I will fill you in as best as I can ... I was not privy to the final decision process but I can speak some about how we got there.

1. one of the very first things we established was the Attack Rating vs Defense Rating relationship
2. we had also decided that we wanted to make sure we had an emphasis on attributes
3. we were also looking for ways of streamlining by removing rolls from the sequence, the ultimate goal was to have at most one roll for the attacker and one for the defender (one of the things we looked at was removing the soak roll completely) ... this did not playtest very well
4. then we went through several iterations of DR and how it worked and was calculated
5. once we decided armor was to be a major factor in DR, it was decided it would not be a factor in soak ... we wanted it to be a factor to be considered in combat but not the "holy grail" of factors like it was in 5E
6. then damage values were adjusted down to match the reduced soak pools and when it was playtested the effect curve was pretty much the same both ways (i.e. higher DV with armor as soak and lower DV with no armor soak)
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Finstersang

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« Reply #11 on: <07-22-19/1017:37> »
I was very sceptical about the Armor thing at first, and to a little degree, I still am.

Thatīs mostly because of that stupid Limit of 2 Edge per round, which may or may not be either RAW or RAI in the final core book  ::) But thatīs a whole issue on itīs own, not just because of the way armor works now. And luckily, that one can be houseruled/fixed by literally just changing one word in a sentence...

Other than that, I get your thought process. I would have opted for a more "conservative" approach (a.k.a. Armor just reduces damage), but I rather have a system/balance where (worn) armor just gives you Edge - which isnīt so bad considering that you can also reroll Hits of your opposition - than one like SR5 where your Armor jacket often makes up more than 75% of your damage resistance.

I think that the AR-DR system should be a little bit more differentiated in the future, tho. F.i., the Steel Lynx in the QSR has 16(!) Armor for a total DR of 26. Whatīs even the point of having such a high DR? This should be more than enough to grant that beast an Edge against pretty much every attacker. If the differences between AR and DR really can get this high, there should be at least an additional benefit when the AR-DR difference is unusually high (f.i. denying the opposition to use Edge on their own on their defense/attack test, which is going to be my houserule in these cases). Same in the "middle band": Why not use the AR-DR comparison to determine who wins on a tie?

I guess itīs not a coincidence that the Combat Supplement is scheduled this early for the new Edition. Maybe there are already plans on how to enhance and differentiate the "Low-Res" mechanics of the CRB?
« Last Edit: <07-22-19/1037:08> by Finstersang »

Typhus

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« Reply #12 on: <07-22-19/1025:07> »
#6 is the answer I was hoping existed, thank you. I'm curious about one aspect though. How is it that heavy armor vs light armor somehow equate to the same effect on damage values?  Feels like heavier armor ought to offset damage in some better way than just higher DR. Maybe not street level armor, but some of the higher end security/ milspec armor maybe?

Banshee

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« Reply #13 on: <07-22-19/1033:43> »
#6 is the answer I was hoping existed, thank you. I'm curious about one aspect though. How is it that heavy armor vs light armor somehow equate to the same effect on damage values?  Feels like heavier armor ought to offset damage in some better way than just higher DR. Maybe not street level armor, but some of the higher end security/ milspec armor maybe?

the CRB armor basically only covers light armor ... the heaviest thing you can get is FBA, which is still light armor in the big scheme of things and the only advantage it provides is full coverage

milspec is not a thing yet, so not sure how it will factor but if I would guess that it will behave like hardened armor which does give a soak boost in the CRB (the hardened armor power is on the errata list though so may get tweaked yet .. it's OP when compared to the new DV's) ... I am also hoping for some more armor options to make it into the advanced combat book whenever it sees the light of day
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #14 on: <07-22-19/1159:39> »
I was very sceptical about the Armor thing at first, and to a little degree, I still am.

Thatīs mostly because of that stupid Limit of 2 Edge per round, which may or may not be either RAW or RAI in the final core book  ::) But thatīs a whole issue on itīs own, not just because of the way armor works now. And luckily, that one can be houseruled/fixed by literally just changing one word in a sentence...

Other than that, I get your thought process. I would have opted for a more "conservative" approach (a.k.a. Armor just reduces damage), but I rather have a system/balance where (worn) armor just gives you Edge - which isnīt so bad considering that you can also reroll Hits of your opposition - than one like SR5 where your Armor jacket often makes up more than 75% of your damage resistance.

I think that the AR-DR system should be a little bit more differentiated in the future, tho. F.i., the Steel Lynx in the QSR has 16(!) Armor for a total DR of 26. Whatīs even the point of having such a high DR? This should be more than enough to grant that beast an Edge against pretty much every attacker. If the differences between AR and DR really can get this high, there should be at least an additional benefit when the AR-DR difference is unusually high (f.i. denying the opposition to use Edge on their own on their defense/attack test, which is going to be my houserule in these cases). Same in the "middle band": Why not use the AR-DR comparison to determine who wins on a tie?

I guess itīs not a coincidence that the Combat Supplement is scheduled this early for the new Edition. Maybe there are already plans on how to enhance and differentiate the "Low-Res" mechanics of the CRB?

Yeah pretty much all the limits on edge gain hurt it for being used as a universal mechanic.  Armor alone should probably be a edge for every 4 difference. Maybe even a quicker exchange. If you gained 4 edge as a troll tank getting shot at by a pistol it might feel like a difference than rando human with armor jacket neither gaining or granting a edge. 1 edge with a cap of 2 per round and absolute cap of 7 hahaha.