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[SR6] Why does Engineering cover Gunnery?

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Typhus

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« on: <07-29-19/1745:59> »
Wondering what the definition of "Engineering" in 6E is that it manages to encompass using gunnery?

Hobbes

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« Reply #1 on: <07-29-19/1754:25> »
Dev Love letter to Riggers so they can shoot gun mounted on cars and fix cars for less skill points.

Engineering covers Gunnery and "Things you do with tools that aren't covered by Hardware".  IMO there is a fair bit of fuzzy overlap between Electronics (Hardware) and Engineering, which is just fine.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <07-29-19/1811:20> »
It's a skill that could have instead been called "Mechanical Operations".
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Typhus

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« Reply #3 on: <07-29-19/1831:18> »
OK.  The name suggests more of a Build/Repair skill than a Do Things skill.  Sounds like it's both?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: <07-29-19/1833:33> »
OK.  The name suggests more of a Build/Repair skill than a Do Things skill.  Sounds like it's both?

Very much so.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Typhus

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« Reply #5 on: <07-29-19/1901:08> »
Thank you much.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #6 on: <07-29-19/1925:13> »
Check out no future and how composing songs is covered by the con skill.

I think we will be bumping into a lot of things like this where a skill covers non intuitive areas. 19 skills which effectively covers everything you do. A lot of odd ball matches and weird judgment calls.

Like if a character is a chef, or painter formerly I’d say artisan skill. Now, no idea. Though the composer part of no future with rockers implied con might even cover painting.

Jayde Moon

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« Reply #7 on: <07-29-19/2007:14> »
Remember that specializations are GM approved... the examples given by the book aren't necessarily hardcoded.

By default, it looks like Catalyst tried to account for actual 5E skills to sort of throw a bone at legacy players wondering what the heck they're supposed to do for skill X or Y.
That's just like... your opinion, man.

Typhus

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« Reply #8 on: <07-29-19/2024:43> »
Quote
Remember that specializations are GM approved... the examples given by the book aren't necessarily hardcoded.

Specializations aren't fixed to skills?  Is that a QSR rule or something we know for sure in the CRB? 

Marcus

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« Reply #9 on: <07-29-19/2219:42> »
B/c it's MAD, MAD, MAD world, and they wanted Rigger to be SAD in this edition.

Probably b/c it's be very confusing what skill was used in the last edition  and this is the fix for that problem
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Typhus

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« Reply #10 on: <07-29-19/2344:25> »
Seems like "fix" is a generous term in that context. 

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #11 on: <07-30-19/0021:42> »
It appears to be quite simple really. Engineering was the skill group for the repair skills which were underused even at four skills in the one group. With each individual skill they had to pick whether to leave it a single skill or to merge it into a group. They decided to combine Gunnery with the repair skills and kept the old group name. It's nothing fancy.
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dezmont

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« Reply #12 on: <07-30-19/0612:32> »
Makes some sense, the skill list definitely needed to be consolidated and riggers were suffering from needing more nuyen than anyone besides deckers as well as rigger specific skills like EWAR, Gunnery, and vehicle piloting, as well as stealth, with none of their secondary skills being in a skill group cluster like how Samurai can take stealth to get sneaking and palming. So they were the most skill AND arguably most nuyen intensive role in the game, and if wifi negation was common at your table your super mega intense investment did... nothing a samurai didn't do way better and way cheaper.

I think the issue is more that they killed and merged a bunch of skills but kept some of the old names. As was stated maybe 'Mechanical Operation' would fit better, and likewise Con probably could use a change now that it was definitely going to be more than con. That is 'just' an issue with the aesthetics of a mechanic, but that matters a LOT more than you might think because it takes you out of the game and makes the mechanics harder to learn and understand. There are still so many people who don't get that 'sleaze' for example is an important matrix combat stat because the name is so evocative for what it actually does. Many people skip over Clout as a spell for the same reason because its name doesn't evoke anything makes it seem like a filler spell despite it being the only innately non-lethal direct combat spell. These are the details that help make a game coherent and when they are ignored too often things become sorta a mess, so while the merge was definitely justified it definitely is fair to say 'what the heckin heck?'

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #13 on: <07-30-19/0632:15> »
No it's not. 'That's weird, rename would have been better' is fair. Making a mountain out of a molehill is anything but.
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penllawen

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« Reply #14 on: <07-30-19/0633:57> »
I think the issue is more that they killed and merged a bunch of skills but kept some of the old names. As was stated maybe 'Mechanical Operation' would fit better, and likewise Con probably could use a change now that it was definitely going to be more than con.
Yeah, strongly agree with this bit. Broad skills need broad names. Off the top of my head, I'd prefer keeping the SR5e name "Performance" for the new Con skill, for example. I'm sure there are even better options, too, given a thesaurus and some time.