[Lormyr]

With the added Damage reduction, no. It´s an absolute Trap.

Where I would say it is balanced. What is more important on this attack? You gaining edge, your victim not gaining edge, or you doing one additional point of damage. Choose well.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Okay so this is my first post and first edition of shadowrun but I have been lurking and this APDS argument has been hurting my head and I'm beginning to think it's because I'm making the mistake of applying a real world term to the game.  Does APDS mean amour-piercing discarding sabot?  If it does then (discarding it's dubious viability in small arms to begin with) it absolutely should have -1 dv as the sabot would reduce the over all size of the round, the effect should probably be to negate the benefits of hardened armour, as APDS rounds in the real world are manufactured to Pierce the sides of tanks and ships they have nothing to do with body armor

Truth does come from the mouth of (forum) babes.

As for the "discarding sabot" part of the name: yes that's exactly what it is. I prefer to selectively ignore that and pretend they're simple bullets with future-teflon coatings or something.  But yes, technically they leave behind tiny little sabots.  It's even referenced over in the RFID section

As for the proverbial wailing and gnashing of teeth about the effectiveness of APDS ammo in this edition: my pet theory is there's more than a little dissonance about how APDS used to be the god-bullet that you were wrong to NOT use in the previous edition.  There's people very not used to APDS being hands-down better than every other option (for when you're trying to kill someone, at any rate... nonlethal rounds always were preferable for subduing a target without killing them!)

[Finstersang]

With the added Damage reduction, no. It´s an absolute Trap.

Where I would say it is balanced. What is more important on this attack? You gaining edge, your victim not gaining edge, or you doing one additional point of damage. Choose well.

That 1 point of damage has about the same worth than 1 Point of Edge. So that assertment would be somewhat true if the Ammo choice is guaranteed to give you an Edge (or denying one).  However, it´s quite likely that this measly +2 AP increase is not going to make the difference that either grants you and Edge or denies Edge. Not to mention the 2-Edge-per-round limit    And in that case, it´s just a pointless damage reduction without any benefit.

Not to mention that increasing AP as mechanic doesn´t really care if the target has Armor. 

Another Suggestion:
Drawback: Decreases Damage by 1 as before (regardless of the type of target).
Benefit: Cut the following ratings in half (round up) for the target: Armor, Hardened Armor, Cover.

[Lormyr]

I personally think the 1 damage is more valuable, but that is kind of the whole point. APDS can be situationally better than 1 damage, but usually not. That is the sort of versatility that cheap resources should be providing. On occasion, but uncommonly.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

However, it´s quite likely that this measly AP increase is not going to make the difference that either grants you and Edge or denies Edge. And in that case, it´s just a damage reduction without any purpose whatsoever.   

It's possible that +2 AR doesn't make a difference on edge gain, sure.

But there's no "Augmented AR" cap. Stack the bonus from smartgun, being prone, taking aim, etc. All told, you've almost GOT to be gaining edge if you make use of options available.  And +2 from APDS is one less factor necessary to assemble your perfect storm for edge gain.

Furthermore, APDS ammo can be used to offset AR penalties, like with firing modes.  SA bursts would be a wash with APDS, but BF is  -4AR, +2DV vs -2AR, +1DV. Still get bonus damage, but the -4 vs -2 CAN be the difference between edge gain/denial.

[Finstersang]

I personally think the 1 damage is more valuable, but that is kind of the whole point. APDS can be situationally better than 1 damage, but usually not. That is the sort of versatility that cheap resources should be providing. On occasion, but uncommonly.

Right line of thought, but slightly off. It´s about choosing the right tool, yes.

So, in what situation is APDS supposed to be the better choice? Answer: If the target is highly Armored and/or behind barriers.

In what situation is APDS the (very, very slightly) better choice in current the RAW? Answer: If the DR is, by pure chance, around 3-4 higher or lower than the AR. Which you also don´t really know, you can just gess. So it´s not really a choice like "Ouh, this one looks tough. Better get out the APDS to get through".

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well, if you're talking about the opportunity cost of loading APDS vs other ammo types...

look at the Ares Pred VI

[Lormyr]

You also have to look at its cost though. To get DR high enough to matter, you have to sink a shit load of resources into it. A few nuyen bullet has no business countering that. You want APDS to wreck armor? Scale the cost appropriately and I won't criticize.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

You also have to look at its cost though. To get DR high enough to matter, you have to sink a shit load of resources into it. A few nuyen bullet has no business countering that. You want APDS to wreck armor? Scale the cost appropriately and I won't criticize.

This is faulty logic.  Just because DR can be countered it doesn't mean it's worthless.  The higher the DR, the more intricate the perfect storm has to be to gain edge against it. Once your DR is up in the high teens, it's still a valuable asset to you even if, IF, someone somehow gets edge against you. For example, that person probably had to be making use of the firing while prone AR bonus, which means great things for you if you or a teammate is in melee reach. The costs involved in stacking AR that high surely involve too many Minor Actions to permit two Majors, which means you can only be shot one instead of twice, and etc.

And it shouldn't be necessary to mention, but of course even if someone is able to find a way to pay a steep opportunity cost to gain edge against your DR... the VAST majority of the time that won't be happening.

[Lormyr]

This is faulty logic.  Just because DR can be countered it doesn't mean it's worthless.

You and I have been through this, and just have to agree to disagree. You find my logic faulty, and I find yours and the system's the same. The juice isn't worth the squeeze to scale the DR that high, even discounting scope nonsense.

In order to escape the AR range of a decent gun with a few thousand nuyen mods (AR range 18ish), the defender has to spend essence, power points, or quality points/karma poins (sustain spell or quicken) and spell slots. These things are not proportional cost in the slightest.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

This is faulty logic.  Just because DR can be countered it doesn't mean it's worthless.

You and I have been through this, and just have to agree to disagree. You find my logic faulty, and I find yours and the system's the same. The juice isn't worth the squeeze to scale the DR that high, even discounting scope nonsense.

In order to escape the AR range of a decent gun with a few thousand nuyen mods (AR range 18ish), the defender has to spend essence, power points, or quality points/karma poins (sustain spell or quicken) and spell slots. These things are not proportional cost in the slightest.

Yeah I regret using the phrase "faulty logic".  We're prioritizing and deprioritizing different things, and don't agree on the value in seeing it the other's way.  So, I didn't mean to offend.  Indeed, agree to disagree.

[Lormyr]

Yeah I regret using the phrase "faulty logic".  We're prioritizing and deprioritizing different things, and don't agree on the value in seeing it the other's way.  So, I didn't mean to offend.  Indeed, agree to disagree.

All good man. I take all challengers, keeps me sharp.

[markelphoenix]

If Medkits cannot heal Drain, what about Slap Patches? Don't believe it mentions them in the Errata as being excluded from healing Drain.

[Michael Chandra]

Typically, NOTHING except resting can restore Drain. But you're right that the rules often miss that detail.

[PiXeL01]

Its mentioned in the book several times that nothing except edge and rest can heal drain.